Eu constituition, have we all been sold down the river?

[PeterG]

Watch and discuss.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b16_1203991625

[chessie]

Yes, yes, yes - well and trully sold down river. The EU elite don't like the ordinary 'drones', the hard-working, tax-paying decent citizens. After all, if we had a referendum on the Lisbon 'Treaty/Constitution' we probably wouldn't vote the way 'they' want.

The EU is a gross and obscene 'gravy train' for the MEPs; democracy doesn't matter - we are all to be good little citizens, pay our taxes and not think for ourselves. When was it transformed into this nightmare of a Federal Socialist State rather than an affiliation of happy econmic trading nations with freedom of movement? I like the different cultures and countries of Europe (what remains of them) - I do not like the over-writing of our UK Freedoms under Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights by any clap-trap of an EU Constitution.

Why should countries hand over their sovereign rights to govern themselves to the EU elite....we gave the Europeans back their freedom after World War II - why are these countries so happy to give up their freedoms now........the whole EU con trick has become a monster - and is a back-door invitation to an inevitable dictatorship...we are losing our democratic freedoms...

And I certainly won't mention all the fraud that takes place which is so apalling that the EU hasn't been able to get the accounts signed off for  - what is it now - 11 years !!! And it's our money that they waste !!!

Chessie

[Tony F Dordogne]

But it's the EU that has enabled many of us to live and work where we want to across Europe and the fact we have new rules which take us away from the original approach to Europe is a good thing. The world has changed since 1956 (when the original Treaty of Rome was signed) and most certainly has since 1215 and 1689 (a sets of laws which still ensure that the ruler of the UK HAS to be a Protestant for goodness sake) and to say that Europe as an entity and Britain/UK should still be trying to live by political systems and laws written for the country as it was then seems rather short sighted.

Are you taking your views literally chessie and not using the various health benefits you get from an integrated Europe, lower taxes living here and the rest?  And as France is broadly a socialist and republican state, born from a revolution, no matter what the ruling party is, if you dislike socialism so much, why do you choose to live in France/Socialist Europe? 

To me it's very easy - forget Manga Carta, that was always a spurious argument used by people wanting to maintain their Englishness and the Manga Carta gave the ordinary people, the peasantry nothing that can be described as true freedom, they were still mainly the serfs and vassals of their unelected lords and masters and it took several hundred years to put that injustice right.  From not long after Magna Carta England/the UK was usually at war somewhere in Europe or involved in European wars for reasons of politics, economics or wanting to organise other people's lives.

Thanks to the original Treaty of Rome and the mindset of the politicians involved Europe has maintained the longest period of peace between the major powers that it has ever know and after the disasters of WW1 and WW2, the fact that wars in Europe (other than the stupidities in the Balkan States) is now unknown has to be one of the greatest benefits the world has known.

The UK joined the Common Market as it was then (and the structure of Europe has changed because Europe and the rest of the world has changed into larger socio-economic blocs) after a referendum and I agree that the UK should hold a referendum on this issue.

And, if the Treaty is rejected by the UK, Britain should consider it's position in Europe and that British immigrants, not the ex-pats, people who are here for good - should be given the option of going back to the UK, or loosing all their UK entitlements and paying their way as other immigrants without EU status should (healthcare, benefits and the like as the UK and make this retrospective so that people already here would loose their entitlements if they chose to) or becoming citizens of the country in which they choose to live, in that way they can demonstrate their committment to their new homeland and for some of us, a European system that we do want to support.

[Nelson]

Tony I think I agree with you but could you explain what you mean by British immigrants, not the ex-pats.

regards colin

[Tony F Dordogne]

Colin, it's something that's discussed here quite often.  The ex-pats are those people who leave the Uk with the intention of working/living abroad but in the end, they want to and plan to return to the UK.  The immigrants (like J and I) are here forever, this is where we live and this is where we'll stay with no intention of returning to the Uk.

[Hoddy]

Just as a matter of historical accuracy, Tony, we did not have a referendum about joining the EU. The referendum was taken after we had joined and the question was about whether to stay in.

Hoddy

[Deimos]

I would expect different people to have different opinions

about the new Constitution/Treaty.  I

would expect those in favour to not want a referendum and those against to want

one.  Maybe this is where the mix in

justifications for having or not having a referendum gets confused.

Many people more qualified than myself (independent) have

said the Treaty is basically the same as the Constitution (including some

government committees which have passed judgement after studying the documents

in detail).  France and Netherlands have

already rejected this so how come their populations are not up-in-arms about

their politicians ignoring what they said previously.  Have the French and Dutch really fallen for the “it’s not the

same” story.

When the French voted against it I got the definite

impression from talking to locals here that they were doing that very French

thing and “voting strategically” – and not actually voting on the proposed

constitution but on a different issue (hence maybe not so much concern now).

However trying to ignore the is the treaty the right way

forward, a major issue seems to me that they are really pretty well the same

documents and the British people were promised a referendum (rightly or wrongly

it was promised).  Thus, for politicians

to change the name and the say it is not “the Constitution” any more is to

treat the electorate with contempt – something politicians seem to do a lot

these days.

One thing the issue has brought out is what a farce the new

Liberal leader is.  I actually had hopes

he might take their party somewhere but he seems to be just a big joke.

Ian

[Nelson]

Tony after your reply I have now re-read your post and it now makes sense to me , and I do agree with you. Thanks

regards colin.

PS. I think a referendum may not give the negative result some people think it would, that is if you could get enough people to vote, always a problem in the U.K

[Tony F Dordogne]

I sit corrected Hoddy.

[chessie]

Under this new 'Treaty' each President/Prime Minister has to swear an oath of allegiance to the EU first, and is honour bound (honour and politician - that's a joke) to defend and put the interests of the EU First  - Before those of his/her own country, and to defend the EU first and foremost. That's an act of treason. A President/Prime Minister's own country's interest should come first before anything.

When we had a vote back in the 1970s it was for a 'Common Market' - not the beaurocratic, interfering, many-headed monster with draconian powers it has become. We were lied to back in the 70s, and we are being lied to now.

Our UK constitution under the Bill of Rights has not been repealled; to sign away our rights to foreign powers without consulting the people is an act of treason. The Bill is part of our Constitution - and only the UK people have the right to make such decisions. We were promised a referendum - we have not had one. We are not having a debate or a line-by-line scrutiny in the Houses of Parliament as we were promised. Probably couldn't have a 'line-by-line' because half of the Treaty hasn't yet been written !! But we have been lied to and treated with contempt by the politcal elite...

As for other coutnries accepting the Treaty without any dissension - uhmm - really ? I believe there are similar feelings across the rest of Europe - it's just that the 'media elite/political elite' don't want them reported

Peace in Europe after the WW2 - surely the UN and NATO had something to do with that as well ? And as for being involved in European wars - did we start them all ? Or weren't we trying to to bang heads together to bring peace ?

As for disliking socialism - why do you interpret that from my post ? I haven't said I'm a communist/capitalist/socialist/anything/nothing - the fact that you - Tony - refer to 'socialist Europe' rather gives the game away - maybe 'EU socialism' is what the EU is about. But we were never told that, we were never given an opportunity to vote on EU socialism - it was a 'Common Market'. Circumstances have changed, society has changed, economies have changed - so do we just go along accepting blindly what we are told by the political elite - without questioning and without knowing what is being done and what will affect our lives, and our childrens ?

Health benefits living out here - uhmm not really - pluses and minuses - but overall can't say one system is better than the other. We have to pay out here - it's not free - in the UK it's free. Lower taxes - really - what about some UK savings - ISAs and TESSas, and lump-sum pension payments, and inheritance tax, and capital gains tax - less than the UK - really ?

As for the UK leaving the EU - why not - the other countries that are 'associated with but not part of' the EU' aren't having any problems. And as for benefits of the EU for say - our fisheries (well we all know about the British fishing non-industry and the reasons for its decline  don't we) - and the wine lakes, and the grain mountains and all the other stupidities - can't think of many ways being in the EU has been of any great benefit. Look at the fuss over metrication - even the Chinese use the Imperial measurements and despite all their efforts the EU Kommisars had to recognise that Imperial measurements just weren't going to go away, have had to admit defeat and now we can use bothe Imperial and Napolean measurements. Why did the EU want to ban the Imperial measurements anyway. It's this interefering, bossy, change the UK way of doing things that I find really nasty - and totally unnecessary.

It's obviously a wet Sunday afternoon out here in Dordognshire - never thought I'd be chuntering about politics like this !!

[Tony F Dordogne]

But you left the UK Chessie with all the rights that you hold so dear to live, you decided to leve them behind, to live in a country that benefits from it's EU membership arguably more than most other countries because of it's historical role in the EU and is, equally arguably, at the heart of the EU that you seem to absolutely loathe and detest. 

[nomoss]

I'm afraid I can't see the connection between coming to live in France, or any other EU country (or should that be state?), under the rules of free movement laid down in the 1980's, and being opposed to the current drive towards a Europen Federal State.

[chessie]

Thank you nomoss - I did wonder if I was totally out-of-step !!!

As for the 1689 Bill of Rights - well that's still a current Law which states that the rights of the 'citizens of the UK cannot be handed over to a foreign power without the consultation and agreement of the people'. And we have not had that consultation or agreement...

This Bill is still a current piece of legislation.; So current, in fact, that the Speaker of the House of Commons has just in the last 48 hours invoked this same Bill to prevent disclosure of information from a commttee meeting discussing the costs/implications being encountered by the UK plan for an ID system.

So rather than being an archaic piece of legislation, it is still current. And under this current legislation what Gordon Brown has done is an Act of Treason.

As for disliking France - did I say that ? I like my own country - in the same way that a French person in the UK - and benefiting from all that the UK has to offer - presumably still likes their home country; in the same way that a German in the UK, or a Spaniard in the UK, or a Belgian in the UK, or an Italian in the UK....or a Belgian living in Spain, or an Italian living in Greece, or a German living in Italy....

We are going a step much too far towards a Federal Socialist State of Europe - a step which all the citizens across the EU ought to be able to have a vote on. The fact that every EU citizen is not - is a betrayal of every one of us - not just UK citizens. I'm just making the point that we have been lied to, time and time again - and that Gordon Brown has commited an Act of Treason under existing UK law.

Chessie

[Gluestick]

[quote]I'm just making the point that we have been lied to, time and time again [/quote]

Of course we've been lied to, Chessie; in particular, about the much vaunted EU.

I have a copy of a letter on file, sent to Ted Heath by a senior Tory Lord at the time of negotiation for Britain's entry into the European Community, as it was then called.

The Lord warned Heath that he was wholly misrepresenting what the then government planned to the electorate by allowing the myth of a simple trading Blok to be perpetuated, with no mention of the forward plans to federalise Europe.

Heath, of course, had been the Tory leader on Europe and it had become, as so often, a political and ideological lovechild. Little thought was given to the holistic mechanism: as always, the devils was very in the detail.

As Thatcher demonstrated with the European Telecommunications Treaty, once Red Hot Dutch started beaming hard porn to the UK and selling satellite cards, she then complained bitterly: however it was pointed out that it was covered in the treaty, but that the government hadn't read it properly!

And this, for me, is the core problem: at no time has the UK government managed the whole process effectively, be it Labour or Tory. We entered at precisely the wrong time: and sold our colonial partners down the river. Canada, New Zealand and Australia have never forgotten.

Most interestingly, at Business School back in the 70s at the time the UK joined, finally, one of my lecturers was a very senior Customs and Excise officer who had had the major responsibility of negotiating the Nomenclature which tabulated the gradually reducing tarrifs over the "Run In" period. (I majored in International Trade and the EEC was a large part of this then).

He told us that speaking no French (!!) - all the negotiations were in French - he hadn't much of a clue what was going on and what was being agreed!

The total fiasco over EMS ought to have been a wake up call.

Clearly it wasn't.