Having a survey done - how ?

[miaviv]

What would be the equivalent of a structural house survey in France and who would perform it and at what cost ?  We bought a house a few years back near Toulouse (have since sold it) but didn't have one done, I would however be tempted to do it for a future purchase but know that the French don't go in for surveys much. 

Thanks

[Polly]

For a structural survey, or simply for independent pre-purchase advice, there are Chartered Surveyors operating in France who will provide you with a survey to meet your requirements. You can't do better (though no doubt somebody will come laong and tell you otherwise!)

You can find them for ex by searching the relevant section of the business directory at French Property News, at http://www.french-property-news.com/france-business-directory-directory-search--3972

As to cost: that will depend on the size and type of property you are looking at (a chateau will obviously cost more to survey than a 2-bed house) and what sort of detail you require.

A Chartered Surveyor will always agree the fee with you in advance, and agree with you the terms of his/her appointment regarding what is to be included/excluded from their report.

[pachapapa]

There doesn't seem to be much on structural construction in the RICS Training.[:)]

http://www.rics.org/site/download_feed.aspx?fileID=5829&fileExtension=PDF

[mint]

Not quite true, Pacha.  Depends on which division of the RICS the person belongs to. 

A surveyor from the Building division (ie a Chartered Building Surveyor) ought to be pretty clued up on structure and would have had generous dollops of Structural Mechanics in their training diet.

[Will]

You should find these two similarly-named, but I believe unconnected, sites useful:

http://www.surveyorsinfrance.com/

http://www.surveyors-en-france.com/

[pachapapa]

Thanks Sweet and Will for expanding knowledge base.

[Polly]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

There doesn't seem to be much on structural construction in the RICS Training.[:)]

http://www.rics.org/site/download_feed.aspx?fileID=5829&fileExtension=PDF

[/quote]

My dear man, the brochure to which you refer is simply a list of some supplemementary courses offered to those working or training to be Chartered Surveyors. It is NOT a complete guide to RICS training!

If you want more information on how to become a chartered surveyor go to http://www.rics.org/site/scripts/documents_info.aspx?documentID=358&pageNumber=2

Sweet is quite right, Chartered Building Surveyors in particular are schooled in building pathology and building defect analysis, and they have studied the mechanisms of structural failures. (No I'm not one BTW, nor am I married to one!)

[Théière]

That's the difference between real knowledge and that gained from Google, Bing and Ask Jeeves

[Quillan]

I was under the impression, probably incorrectly so, that RICS Surveyors are not legally recognised in France by the French authorities. By that I mean you can't pay a deposit then say completion subject to survey then use a RICS surveyor and use their report to either stop the sale or ask for work to be done by the seller at their expense or have the price reduced. I may be totally wrong of course but I am sure I read that somewhere or perhaps somebody told me. I also wondered if the RICS course covered French building techniques and regulations etc.

[Peter]

It can be confusing ensuring you have chosen the right ‘type’ of

chartered surveyor.  After all there is no point in getting an Arts andA ntiques surveyor or a Facilities Management surveyor to look undertake a

condition survey of a building

Of equal status are the members

of The Chartered Institute of Building. This is the qualifying body for

more than 42,000 construction professionals in over 100 countries

worldwide. It has a Royal Charter to promote the science and practice of

construction for public benefit.

After a minimum of  6 -7 years

training - and often a long career in the building industry - these

professionals are more than qualified to offer building condition

surveys on any sort of property.  

In the final analysis most of

the players in the property selling process are not working for you, the

buyer’s, best interests.  Frankly the odds are stacked against you.

 The best way to strengthen your hand is to instruct a professional and

completely independent Building Surveyor - one who has absolutely no

outside interests related to your decision - and who is committed to

acting only for you.

Also always make sure any surveyor you use

is registered as a business in France and that they carry Professional

Indemnity Insurance for building surveys in France.  Ask to see proof of

this insurance - it gives real protection and peace of mind.  

It is

worth remembering that the professional surveyor sells expert advice,

not building work or chemical treatments.

____________________________________________________

[Peter]

Following Will's lead here is another web site you might find useful

http://www.surveyor-chanteloup.com/index.html

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Théière"]That's the difference between real knowledge and that gained from Google, Bing and Ask Jeeves[/quote]

Indeed but due to knowing nothing about the Institute of Surveyors the use of google is a quick way of getting an idea; although on this topic I might have done better with WikiPedia than the difficulties of navigating the official site.

Perhaps you can help me with the URL ostensibly giving fuller information as I am getting a Error 404; this is the URL  http://www.rics.org/site/scripts/documents_info.aspx?documentID=358&pageNumber=2

Looking forward with anticipation to accessing the more informative official page to even further enhance my survey knowledge base.

Thanks in advance,PPP.

EDIT 12:58; curiously the copy of the URL works on this post but not on the Polly Post, so ignore bit about URL[:)]

[Polly]

pachapapa, my links never seem to work on a click but they do on a copy & paste. Maybe it's a mac or firefox glitch? I can't post smileys either.

BTW it's the Royal INSTITUTION not Institute of Chartered Surveyors

Quillan, the RICS has a French presence which accredits courses in France. Also, even if a surveyor did his/her initial training in another country, they (like many other professionals) have to rack up a certain amount of hours every year keeping their competences up to date. Thus there is the opportunity to learn about different techniques in a professional & structured manner.

You can put anything in a clause suspensive, so long as the vendor agrees, so yes, subject to survey not finding x,y,z... (with the appropriate detailed wording) would be perfectly legal.

re Peter's post: yes, all professional surveyors will carry PII to cover their work. It costs an arm and a leg, and still leaves them open to attack from clients who are miffed that they didn't see something as, sadly, for all their training they don't have x-ray eyes. Which is why there's always a long list of items excluded from their reports, with notes such as 'no fitted carpets were lifted, and no plasterboard removed and no comment can be made on X as the owner would not release keys to access that space'

[miaviv]

Thanks for all your replies.  My husband is French and doesn't think it's the 'done thing' to get a survey done in France and we didn't really have any problems with the last house we purchased.  I just feel that I want maximum assurances the next time round. 

Did all of you have surveys done ?  Did you manage to lower the asking price on the back of it if problems came to light ?

Thanks

[Quillan]

No we didn't. After getting the shock of our life at the fee a RICS surveyor wanted to charge us and then checking with the Notaire that they did not recognise RICS in France from a legal point of view (so anything he produced would be legally worthless) we asked around amongst all our new French friends who knew who built the house and decided not to bother. I have to say the house is still here and the only thing that has happened is a slipped roof tile.

[Peter]

‘Done thing’ or not, it seems the most obvious thing to do.  When else,
during a life time, would one risk such huge sums of money without taking
action to protect oneself?  
 
Also when looking for a property it is easy to be pressured into making a
quick decision.  Often the choice is made after only a couple of fairly
brief visits and without a full understanding of the condition of the
property. Sometimes buyers don’t fully appreciate the importance of
recognising the condition of the property and as a result often pay over
the odds and seriously underestimate the costs of renovation.  
So yes the findings of a surveyor can be used to negotiated a better price
 
Finally, you don’t have to pay the fees a RICS surveyor charges there are
other – equally competent – building professionals out there who offer the
same service for smaller fees.
 

[Patf]

As Peter implies, a competent builder can check out a house and point out any potential problems; Though they wouldn't give such a detailed written report as a surveyor.

I think most british surveyors would be horrified at the lack of foundations in most french rural properties - yet they stand for centuries!

And as for damp proof courses - what are they?

[PaulT]

A lot of it you can do yourself. For example, take a pair of binoculars to look at the roof, what are the tiles like, is there sagging. Look in the roof space what do the beams look like. Gently press on the plasterwork - does it move etc etc.

Take a look at the wiring at the fuseboard - are there enough circuit breakers - if nominated are there the separate circuits for washing machine, dishwasher etc. If not perhaps a rewire is in order.

What is the state of windows, are there cracks in the walls.

Sometimes common sense is all that is required - especially some of the caveats that will be in a surveyors report.

Paul

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Just a few comments on some of the replies to this question about using building surveyors.

1. Bear in mind that you buy a French property 'in the condition in which you find it' and if it is not to your liking, then there is no way of forcing a vendor to change anything and/or reduce the price. As a buyer, best to move on and find something else, while the vendor seeks someone who will by his property as is. Most buyers will not buy a property, even with a price reduction, if there are niggling, unfinished but essential jobs that need doing around the house. See M6 TV programme 'Maison à Vendre' for examples.

2. Not sure where you find all these friendly local builders so often mentioned on this Forum, prepared to come along and give you a free survey. At worst, it could be argued they have a vested interest in finding faults that only they can fix. Note also that the building trades in France are highly segregated - an electrician will not comment on work that needs a 'maçon', a carpenter on the state of the plumbing, and so on.

3. Regarding the electrical installation, the latest diagnostic surveys ('expertises') are very comprehensive regarding electrics, gas, energy efficiencty etc - and are paid for by the vendor.

4. If you are planning any kind of extension or alteration, then you could get an architect's view of the property and its potential, for a flat fee.

Cordialement, P-D de R.

[mint]

How I agree with your comment about these "friendly local builders", PdR!

Don't forget many so-called Brit "builders" were perhaps tilers or jobbing builders in the UK and they come out here and set themselves up as your "do it all" builder who can speak your language!

There are two or three of these where we live and OH knows about them because they have come to him for help and advice (OH is a qualified person) and when he does go out with them on site (after repeated distressed calls), he's saved the situation more than once.  (And no, I am not rooting for work for OH:  in fact, I want to move away to a completely new area where no one knows us and he is not being continually begged for help)

They just have no idea and, if you are daft enough to take the word of one of these "builders" (purely on the basis that they speak English and can throw some building terms liberally around), then I can only say I pity you.

[Quillan]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

How I agree with your comment about these "friendly local builders", PdR!

Don't forget many so-called Brit "builders" were perhaps tilers or jobbing builders in the UK and they come out here and set themselves up as your "do it all" builder who can speak your language!

[/quote]

Whilst there are one or two 'been through the system' English builders working in France the best description I ever heard was "The expertise of a English/British builder in France depends on the length of ferry trip to get here. The longer the trip the more of the Readers Digest DIY book they can read.". Not meant to offend those that have taken the time to register and are genuine builders. I built a step with three levels of brick, as a French friend said that qualifies me as builder, it was of course tongue in cheek.

[mint]

Q, the genuine builders have nothing to fear.  For a start, their work stands out as testimony to their craft.

A builder is a versatile, organised and highly skilled person.  OH always says that he never ceases to marvel at how he can give a builder some drawings on a bit of paper and they can put up a building that you can live or work in on a piece of land that was perhaps no more than a very rough field. 

[Stan Streason]

I had a survey done, finding someone off one of the links given earlier.  It cost less than €750 plus €75 of travel expenses (all agreed in advance) and I got a 40 page detailed report with photos.  I was able to use the report (with estimates of costs to repair certain items), to get quotes from some builders to fix identified problems.  2 years down the line and with quite a bit of additional building work later nothing missing from the report has come to light.  I am very happy that I had not left myself open to huge extra costs. B****r what the French do - I am English and I would never buy a house without a survey.

Just a bit of support for my local "English" builder.  He came recommended, is fully French registered and insured and has been working in France for 12 years.  He has been available to accept deliveries for me when I have not been there and has been happy to order materials and get them delivered with his loads for projects I am doing myself.  He has lent me cement mixers and other large tools.  Every job he has done has been quoted for and once when I changed the spec of a job downwards he fully detailed the extra work he could do for me within the original price.  Plumbers/electricians etc have subsequently been employed following a recommendation from him.  In turn he uses my Screwfix account and I bring stuff over for him at times.

The upshot of this is that there are good reputable people out there you just need to put a bit of effort into finding them, getting recommendations, seeing their work etc.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Stan Streason"]

The upshot of this is that there are good reputable people out there you just need to put a bit of effort into finding them, getting recommendations, seeing their work etc.

[/quote]

In short Stan do what you would do in the UK and not jump at the first builder that comes along and that goes for French builders as well, cowboy builders are not unique to the UK. It always amazes me when I hear stories of things going wrong, some people seem to leave their 'common sense' on the quayside when they leave the UK. I would also add your comments, get about 3 quotes as well.