Inheritence regime?

[Nick]

Hello,

My wife and I are just about to complete on a purchase in Normandy. Can anyone advise on whether we need any special clauses in our final contract for inheritence? We are on a first marriage with two sons. We would like a similar regime to the UK, ie on first death the spouse inherits all and on second death our two sons inherit.

Is this allowable under French law without special written contracts?

Thanks

Nick.

[Nick Trollope]

No, inheritance rules are pretty much cast in stone, although the rules do work along the lines you mention.

You MUST talk to the Notaire before you sign, as most provisions can only be made when you sign the contract. He is an expert & has the power to write any necessary (or possible) clauses into the Acte.

Making changes to your "regime" after the Acte is signed is difficult, to say the least.

[Nick]

Nick,

Thank you for your prompt reply - appreciated. I have asked the notaire to look into this for us, but no options have been provided. I keep reading about 'tontine' but not too sure this is what we want and changing marriage regime seems unusual to what we do in the UK.

Is the contract I require given a special name?

[Clarkkent]

Speaking from experience, my circumstances were similar to yours and I bought "en tontine" - there is a single sentence attesting to this in the Expedition. When my wife died, the property became mine and my children's expectations lie in my own eventual death - should I still own the property then.

A tontine is an arrangement in which ownership of the property is not determined until there is only one survivor and in the case of a married couple works in much the same way as the English "joint tenants". There is, however, an upper limit on the value of the property for which a tontine may be arranged.

[Will]

There are likely to be several possible solutions to your question, which is the best for you will depend on your particular circumstances. The most important of these is whether your new house will be your main residence in France, or if it is your holiday home and you are resident elsewhere. Another important factor is the value of your likely estate, both in France and worldwide. As you are married, and your children are from your current marriage, it does make things simpler.

Under French law it is virtually impossible to stop children inheriting (there is a possibility, through buying through a specific sort of company, but this only tends to work if you are non-resident, and it can have disadvantages tax-wise). What you can do is to delay the children's inheritance until after the death of the surviving spouse, at the same time minimising inheritance tax liability, which in France can be considerable.

Professional advice is essential - on the face of it either buying 'en tontine' or changing marriage regime to communauté universelle would seem to suit your circumstances. A notaire should know, but not all are up to speed on this (at least for holiday home owners) or particularly helpful. If your notaire cannot give an answer, go to another (there are some very good ones n Normandy, and others with a very poor reputation) or ask the agent through whom you are buying for a recommendation. Although a marriage regime can be changed after house purchase, it is much more straightforward to do this before the final acte de vente is signed.

[Brilec]

Agree with all Will says, but just to add a liitle extra, the difference between the Tontine caluse and Communaute Universelle is one of inheritance tax. With the former, the surviving spouse will have to pay inheritance tax over a certain value of property, I think it's around €75,0000. With the latter, there is no tax liability.

However, you should check this out for yourself. If you have a look at www.notaires.fr on their english pages, there is some information on this.

Brian.

[Nick]

All,

Thank you for your replies - I will talk to the notaire and get this sorted before the Acte.

Cheers

[Renaud]

We asked the Notiare to (re)marry us under the Communaute Universelle. Like you we have only been married to each other and have two children.  Bon Chance.

[Teamedup]

Renaud, the notaires we have spoken to would not do that. I amazes me as to how this is just done for people, just like that.

 The children could contest as they would lose out with regards to inheritance tax or just because they are being disinherited when one parent dies.

I don't like the system, but, I have not done this.

[Renaud]

Unless Mr & Mrs Nick do something before they marry, then on his or his wife's death, the survivor and their children will jointly inherit their property in France and death duties etc will kick in.

With the Communaute Universelle regime, the surviving spouse will inherit and on that person's death the children inherit - and have to pay both lots of death duties.

If they are so minded, the children might well challenge the the Communaute Universelle inheritance issue in the courts but they would not start from a position where they automatically inherit.

(A friend of ours has a sticker on her car saying "Be nice to your children - they will choose your nursing home".)

When we met our notaire, he rummaged through his filing cabinet until he came up with a photocopy of an article from French Property News.

[Teamedup]

I realise that, I know how it works with regards to passing to the surviving spouse, only I am in no way sure that by doing this one is sorting anything out at all.

Our notaire told us,well I checked with several actually,  that it all depended on intention or act, ie the intention of moving to France or the act of having done so. Either of these things meant that one was in some way accepting that one would come under french law with regards to inheritance. And children who are not major could not be disinherited like this without a court decision, and major children had to give their written permission.

I understand that most of the people on here have 'just done a communaute universelle' without a court agreeing or children's permission. Personally I would not like to be in the situation of having to argue the toss after the death of one of us.

My children are major now and I suppose that we could get them to agree. I just think that the idea that this is automatic and really is sorted out could well be an illusion. At least I know where I stand with what we have done and how it will all spin out.

Anyway good luck and I hope that it works out as you believe it will.

ps have you been told how a possible tutelle would deal with this, upon one of you dying.

[Tourangelle]

I agree with TU, insofar as having looked into this too, and having

taken advice from a highly reputable notaire, you do seem to have to

take it to court.  This is the really expensive part of the

process too!  We don't have any children as yet, but it is still a

complicated and quite lengthy process.  Reading this through

reminds me that I haven't yet asked whether our parents will have to

agree.  I assume they will have to be asked to sign something, as

we will effectively be disinheriting them (I know they will agree!)

With the communaute universelle, there is no inheritance at all,

because everything is owned totally by each person and nothing is owned

individually.  Another downside is that if one of you has mental

probelms, and cannot take a decision, it can be difficult for the other

half to gain control over property money and so on, so it does have to

be thought through very carefully.

[expatgirl]

Hi - my husband and I just bought an apartment in Paris. I don't think we went the tontine route, and I am pretty much at his mercy because I don't as of yet speak French. He has two grown children from a previous marriage, we all love each other but I'm concerned that I may be left unprotected. What about assets outside France?

[Teamedup]

As french residents, world wide assets get counted. You will be protected to some degree anyway as the law changed last year to protect spouses. All that info is on the service-public web site and likely notarial websites too.

[expatgirl]

I had heard something about a modification to the law, but the latest I can find is the the one from 2002. Can anyone direct me to where I can find more current (in English, preferably) info?

thanks a bunch

[Gastines]

Another fly in the ointment. Our Notaire advised us that a Will  Oloeographic ,[probably spelt wrong ,but ]basically it means you write it yourself and sign it in  front of the Notaire. This ensures it it not done under pressure from the other partner.It cost something like 120e each. Is then lodged in Paris.If  husband dies it means the wife can remain in the house, can let the house and receive  all the rent, and on the event of her death the children can get their hands on it. Obviously it works for either party.

I'm amazed that the inhertitance laws haven't been updated, a, to suit the tens of thousands divorced but remaining unmarried because of the problems caused and  b, because of the vast increase in value of the ordinary mans property since this law was introduced.

However as laws are made by lawyers and they make a good living interpreting them, what hope is there?Although I do believe that this one stemmed from some chap called Napoleon.

Regards. Nr.St.Malo.

[Teamedup]

The general law was updated to exactly that last year.

One wasn't obliged to make a paper like this out in front of a notaire or have it registered, a correctly hand written letter signed and dated by the person is quite sufficient. 

[Opalienne]

Can the surviving spouse sell 'en viager' under this new regime as well as let the house out?

[Tony the Turner]

The word is "olographe",  normally used in the phrase "document olograhpe" or "testament olographe".  It means written by yourself and comes from the same root as the English word "holograph".  Probably Greek in origin.  Lawyers use long or foreign words to justify their fees!

[Teamedup]

I don't think selling the property is covered by this, it never used to be. I would most certainly ask if I needed to know this.

[Gastines]

Thanks to Teamedup for the info and Tony the Turner for the correct spelling,also obviously thinks as I do in reference to Lawyers.A necessary evil but I do know one or two good ones.

Regards.Nr.St.Malo

[Teamedup]

As far as I am concerned inheritance is a minefield and any info I have had in the past has always been from several sources, sadly they can vary. So yes legal advice and ofcourse you can always look up basic rules and laws on some of the official french web pages like service-public.fr and notaires de france.

[Golly]

Hello

We have read all of the issues regarding inheritance in France, however our situation is different.  We are married and both have children by our previous marriages.  We plan to move to France permanently, with all of our assets.  Do you know:

a)   Is there a way we can get around inheritance if one of us dies, so as to be able to leave the whole of the property to the surviving spouse. We have heard we could form a company (SCI) or clause en tontine - how effectual would this be????

b) If the surviving spouse wished to sell the property what are the implications? i.e do the children have to give permission for the sale to go ahead? Also will all three children get to inherit or only the children by my husbands marriage???

c) In the light of the above who would you recommend to sort this out for us (if there is a way!!) should it be done in the UK before we leave with a English solicitor who specialises in France, or is this best to be done in France?

Basically, we wish to protect eachother and as we have worked for all our efforts we do not wish the children to get any of this until we are both dead & burried, then they can have whatever is left!!!!!

Sorry for all the questions we seem to be getting nowhere trying to seek advice!! Perhaps anyone can give us their thoughts!!!

[Teamedup]

As we all say, you need good legal advice and from more than one source. A commaunite universelle maybe the thing for you to do, that is if your children are major and give their permission. I realise that some posters have said that they have done just this without permission. I have been told that as the children were being disinherited they could take the estate to court upon the death of their parent. Who knows. All very complicated.

You will be disinheriting one set of kids or at least putting them a huge fiscal disadvantage against their step siblings. And that ofcourse is a choice, but best to know about n'est pas.

 

ie Mary has two kids

   Barry has 3 kids

 

they marry and have no kids together.

 

With a communite universelle if Mary dies, then Barry gets the lot.  Barry being a fair bloke thinks that he will leave all five kids the lot. But, as he is no relation to Mary's kids then his kids will have priority over the estate. And if he can pass anything onto Mary's kids, then the small percentage they would not get any allowance to speak of, around £1000 if it hasn't changed and then the french government would take 60% of the rest. Barry's kids would get a far more generous allowance around €50k and the death duties are a far far lower percentage.

Same if it were the other way round.

 

So, get good legal advice and ask about what would happen exactly, the when and the what, when each of you die.  

[Debra]

Golly - sent you a pm detailing our situation which is pretty  much the same as yours.  Hope it helps.