UK Identity Cards

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"]

 I did wonder, if the issuing of the cards is linked to UK

passports, how it would be able to easily issue cards to foriegn

nationals. Will it be another CSA / Tax Credits style c/o/c/k up?

[/quote]

Probably. It will need a complex database. This will be built by the lowest bidder. Oh well.

[Tag]

I have lived outside the UK for longer than I care to remember and have therefore always had to carry an ID of some sort. The problem is not so much ID, but that I as an individual exist only as an adjunct of that bit of paper or even worse that it gives power to any slimy little bureaucrat to ask for your papers regardless of whether they really need to see them. Further, it gives the right to various organisations to look at my records without either my consent or the assent of a court - in other words "fishing trips" can become the norm. I believe that Blair and Brown have turned our basic rights on their heads by adopting a European position in order ultimately to intergrate the UK further in the EU. By this I mean that under British law you had the right to do anything that was not explicitly forbidden whereas under European law (ie Napoleon), the citizen can only do what is permitted by law. The former is bottom up and the latter top down and to my mind anathema.

As a British citizen in UK I have an absolute right to walk the land without being stopped to prove who I am unless I have committed (or am reasonably suspected of committing) a crime or whatever.

Our rights have thus been subverted in the name of 'security' of different types and the police and security services have been given a free hand to bully the citizen as they wish. Witness the younger woman who was prosecuted for reading the names of Iraqi dead at the Cenotaph.

There needs to be independent legal surveillance of the watchers who should be made to ask for court warrants to snoop on people. For example, stop and search should be justified, identity checks should be justified, video cameras should be justified, as should any withholding of information by the State.

We need a new Bill of Rights which guarantees our freedoms and which curtails the rights of the State to hold information unless there is a reason and also forbids the  bringing together of data from different sources, such as Soc Sec, Inlnd Revenue, Surveillance, unless there is good reason (as understood by the courts). 

And which removes most of the PM's Royal Prerogatives.

 

[Iceni]

As a British citizen in UK I have an absolute right to walk the land without being stopped to prove who I am unless I have committed (or am reasonably suspected of committing) a crime or whatever.

Err, no - on which crisp packet did you read this ? And perhaps an old Bill of Rights is needed first or even a written constitution ?

I have no qualms about having to carry i.d. - or I wouldn't live in France - and have never understood why it is not even necessary to carry driving documents in UK but that's another story.

The cost is irrelevant - it's not the Govt's money that is being spent and we all know how careful they are whether Blue or Red. As in US of A anything will be done with the excuse of fighting terrorism so just get used to it.

John

not.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Iceni"]

As a British

citizen in UK I have an absolute right to walk the land without being

stopped to prove who I am unless I have committed (or am reasonably suspected of committing) a crime or whatever.

Err, no - on which crisp packet did you read this ? And perhaps an

old Bill of Rights is needed first or even a written constitution ?

[/quote]

I believe that Tag is correct in this - there is currently no

requirement for a citizen of the UK to carry ID with them in the UK.

That does seem very likely to change, and you are almost certainly

right that this little fetish of the current government will be funded

to the hilt to the possible detriment minor stuff like education,

health or security measures that might actually work.

[Aside: I've always found it slightly alarming that drug smugglers seem

to have such an easy time getting stuff into the UK. If you think about

the tonnage that does get in, it should be very easy for miscreants

planning general unpleasentnesses to bring in all the materials needed

fairly straightforwardly via the same routes. I think that that is

rather worrying. Money spent on detection equipment (dogs are good, I

am told) would seem to be a far more sensible use of funds.]

 Lots of funding does not mean that the system will work though:

ambitious computing projects run by UK governments haven't had an

enviable track record to date.

[Patmobile]

[quote user="Dicksmith"]Sorry, Urko, whoever you may be. It isn't a tax and it isn't stealthy. It's the dim use of Daily Mail clichés that I object to. And no evidence of corruption either. Whatever happened to 'Put up or shut up'?

I think you are paranoid, or have something to hide, sorry.[/quote]

I know I'm a bit late in arrival, but I disagree, Dick.  It's a stealth tax because the proposed cost of a card bears no relation to the cost of running the immensely complicated system that will be required.  That will have to be paid out of increased general taxation. 

The £30 or whatever they say it will be, is just a figure, plucked out of the air, that the government thinks it can get away with charging.  They represent it as the cost of the entire scheme.

Patrick

[Deimos]

I am not personally against ID cards (or the principle of

them).  After all I carry my passport at the moment.

However, what does annoy me is that the reasons being given

for the UK scheme are flawed.  All this security, prevention of terrorism,

identity fraud, etc. has been shown by experts in the field to just not be the

case.  There are other political motivations going on here.

Similarly, the element of the biometric data for the UK

scheme is flawed.  The technology the UK is proposing to use is not yet

“mature” enough and can result in mis-identification (and remember what

happened to the British pensioner in south Africa when the CIA decided they

recognised his name – UK government did nothing to assist the poor bloke).

The UK government

maintains it will help with regards to identity fraud – however, security

experts believe that the technology selected could actually increase identity

fraud.  Security experts in Holland have exposed a weakness in the technology

which allows data to be "skimmed" from a prototype biometric passport

just 11 yards away.  Within two hours they had access to personal

information, including fingerprints, a digital photo of the passport holder and

their date of birth.  I’m sure that the government will be closing

loopholes – but they are dependant on business where often money is the

priority rather than individuals personal security.

Last I heard was that you will be forced to get a British ID

card when you next renew your British Passport.  And how will I have my

fingerprints taken and retina scanned.  Will UK gov be setting up

appropriate centres in my locality (in France) or will they expect every UK

citizen in France to visit e.g. Paris ?

Ian

[Deimos]

Whether one calls it a “stealth tax” or a “revenue

generation scheme” makes little difference – bottom line seems to be the

government want to part people from their money yet again – no choice, probably

no benefit, etc.

However, being realistic and despite the extortionate cost

the government are intending to charge for the card, they will in practise

probably end up subsidising the scheme – they really never manage to get these

technology things working on time and budgets are drawn and maintained by Hans

Christian Andersen.

Given the significant questions about the government

estimates for the costs of the scheme I do think the government should be

prepared to release more information about the proposed budgets (as requested

by the House of Lords).  After all

Tony/Gordon are not paying for the scheme, the British public are and as such

they should be prepared to give more info on what they are spending our money

on (particularly after the “costings” questions raised by knowledgeable

people).

Again being realistic, TB never gives a “monkeys” about the

public” and happily rides roughshod over anything if he can get away with it –

so I doubt anything will be forthcomming.

Ian

 

[Miki]

Realistic realistic !......perhaps you could enlighten us, as to which

politician would give a monkeys and look after the British taxpayers

money? After all, I am sure you wouldn't want it to look like it was just

another Brit living in France, unable to stop having jibes at the current

British government. I am sure that the opposition will eventually have

the rights to see the costs BEFORE, if ever the procedure to get every

person started on the production of the ID cards.

Again being realistic, TB never gives a “monkeys” about the

public” and happily rides roughshod over anything if he can get away with it –

so I doubt anything will be forthcomming.

Firstly, what did that actually mean ? and secondly, just for the

record, at what stage does an ex-pat living in France, start to take an

interest and think about the politics of the country that they are

actually resident in ?

I am curious about the part that states : (particularly after the “costings” questions raised by knowledgeable

people),

this would would imply that Tony and Gordon are not knowledgeable

people and whatever ones politics,  I doubt that either could have

risen to such prominence without having a fair amount of that.

[Weedon]

Like a lot of these schemes they are simply for the likes of us lackeys to speculate about, but of which we can do nothing if that is what is decided is good for our protection.  Hands up, who amongst us believes that forgers won't have made their own cards and plenty of others sooner than the 45 days it was going to take Saddam to send a hail of missiles to Britain.  I see a few of you with raised hands think that with iris recognition it will be impossible to make fake ones, but, when the baddies do, and have no doubt about it they will,  you might as well call them gift packs as they will contain ALL of your details on the one card, not just your bank details.  But, take it easy folks as life is just a lottery, a few actually win the Lottery, some will have their identities stolen, and some will get bird flu , 99.99% of us will not have any of those things happen to us....but it is good to talk just the same.

weedon

[Deimos]

[quote user="Miki"]After all, I am sure you

wouldn't want it to look like it was just another Brit living in France, unable

to stop having jibes at the current British government.

[/quote]

 

As a British Passport holder I will be obliged to have a

British ID card when I next renew my passport (assuming it goes through as

mandatory).  Also I will have to pay for

it.  I thus feel that it is quite

reasonable for me to pass comment on the scheme despite living in France.

 

[quote user="Miki"]I am sure that the opposition

will eventually have the rights to see the costs BEFORE, if ever the procedure

to get every person started on the production of the ID cards.

[/quote]

 

The British government has refused to provide detailed costings

or to justify the basis for its broad published costings on “security

grounds”.  I know we hear that all the

time these days but it appears that the budgets to pay for the scheme are a

matter of National Security and cannot be disclosed.  The British Government has refused to provide the information

even to the House  of Lords (no idea

about disclosing it to “the opposition” – again please read what I wrote before

criticizing it).  Thus, in the current

security climate it would seem unlikely that such information will be disclosed

(other than by the now “standard leak”).

 

[quote user="Miki"]Again being realistic, TB

never gives a “monkeys” about the public” and happily rides roughshod over

anything if he can get away with it – so I doubt anything will be forthcomming.

Firstly, what did that actually mean ? [/quote]

 

It means he is driving through his own personal agenda.  On occasions his own agenda is at such odds

with the rest of parliament he is failing to get bills passed.  On other occasions things are squeezing through

with a few votes in the clear.  This is

hardly a consensus.  He is using any

means to justify his personal agenda (e.g. “we must not ignore what the police

say” when it comes to prison without trial for 6 months, whereas “we can ignore

what the police say” when it comes to changing the licensing hours).  We are seeing increasing backbench revolts

within the Labour party.  You may not

agree with my observation but I would have expected you to understand the

comment.

 

[quote user="Miki"] …just for the record,

at what stage does an ex-pat living in France, start to take an interest and

think about the politics of the country that they are actually resident in ?

[/quote]

 

Because I take an interest in the politics of the country I

was born in, spent most of my life in, am a citizen of, etc. does not mean I

take no interest in French politics. 

This thread was titled UK Identity Cards.  Nothing to do with France and a discussion of French politics would

be inappropriate.  I think this is just

one of you typical comments to get at people (me) – unnecessary so please try

to stop it.

 

[quote user="Miki"]I am curious about the part

that states : (particularly after the “costings” questions raised by

knowledgeable people), this would would imply that Tony and Gordon are not

knowledgeable people and whatever ones politics,  I doubt that either

could have risen to such prominence without having a fair amount of that.

[/quote]

 

Not at all.  The

comment relates to others who have raised comments.  The “questions raised by knowledgeable people” has nothing to do

with TB or GB and makes no suggestion about them being knowledgeable or

otherwise.  Read what was written –

there is no implication in relation to Tony Blair nor Gordon Brown.  I have used standard English yet you seem to

be trying to put words in my mouth (again). 

Please read what I wrote and not what you want it to mean.

 

Why am I always having to write long justifications about my

posts for you Miki.  Most mature people

are capable of reading what is written without requiring such continual

clarification.

Ian