UK Identity Cards

[Dick Smith]

But why assume that the opinion of a journalist is, in some way, more profound or better informed than anyone else's?

[andyh4]

[quote]Anyway I can't think why the fuss about a little bit of plasticized carton with your mug shot on it. What is your driving licence? your club membership card? your security card to enter your place of ...[/quote]

I cannot for the life of me understand why telling the government where you live should be a problem for any law abiding citizen.

 

Having moved to Germany I was initially a little surprised that we had to register with the local town hall as citizens.  More surprised to find this applied to everyone and not just foreigners.

 

And then it occurred to me -  the government (and a lot of other faceless organisations) know where you live anyway.  This just formallises it.

You fill in a 10 yearly census return.

You fill in your return for the electoral register

The inland revenue know where to send your tax return

The utilities companies know where to send your bills

The relevant agancies know where to send you family benefit/pensions data etc.etc.

If you move the Post Office know where to re-direct your mail

The Licensing authoritiesd know where to send TV and car tax bills........

 

The only difference is that you will have to register when you move and not some weeks or months later.  Which could in some cases be beneficial and speed up the move process.

 

The risks of course of your data being misused is always there - and it is today.  Who polices the Electricity Company and its data protection systems?  - I think you'll find it's the electricity company.

I think this is paranoia  in the extreme - unlesss of course you have something to hide.

[urko]

[quote]But why assume that the opinion of a journalist is, in some way, more profound or better informed than anyone else's?[/quote]

I don't.

[Will]

[quote]But why assume that the opinion of a journalist is, in some way, more profound or better informed than anyone else's?[/quote]

Of course it is, it's what we're paid for. A bit like teachers really  

(sorry Dick)

[Dick Smith]

Hello Albi, I see you are back and as literate as ever. Any more advice about knives for me?

[urko]

Andy

I don't mind telling the TV licence, Revenue and Customs etc, where I live.

I don't see where this gets extended to the government needing my Iris scan and fingerprints, and selling verification of my identity to commercial organisations, and keeping records of every time this happens.

Taking your electricity company example, I don't regard the failure of successive governments to provide effective enforcement of the Data Protection Act as a recommendation to give the government more data.

As I have said I have a lot to hide from people who I don't think have any legitimate right to know it - I believe a degree of privacy is a basic human riight.

Some people will stop at nothing in allowing the government to run their lives - no doubt those with nothing to hide will allow the government inspectors to visit them regularly to check over their houses, or won't mind being regularly stopped by police and told to trun out all their pockets - after all, if you have nothing to hide.....

This proposal changes the balance in that it is effectively a government issuing me with a licence to exist.  I don't need a card or a database to prove who I am.  I think the huge costs should be targetted on the problems this card scheme is supposed to be solving rather than involving everyone.

Regards Urko

[Dick Smith]

Maybe you don't, Urko, and Bill notwithstanding you shouldn't, of course. But there is a big difference between an opinion piece from Muriel Gray and a much more considered piece by, say, Magnus Linklater or Andrew Marr (and I've no idea of their opinions on this issue). But for many people they have equal weight because they are printed. At the extreme you have the red-tops with tendentious stories which may have no real basis in truth, and yet they are believed by some. Too often the power of the press is not balanced by a sense of responsibility, and that may be the case here where there are quite serious security and social issues.

Like that story Bill wrote about Malcolm Glazier buying Brittany Ferries not everything we read is pure reason and logic!

The right to know is an important issue, and there are plenty of people who would like the data, and not all for commercial or sinister reasons. So there have to be safeguards, but those are largely there in the Data Protection Act already, although there are some worrying things the Home Secretary could do without recourse to changing the law (essentially decide that a third party could have the data for some, unspecified as yet, important purpose). And, of course, a lot of the work on the data could be farmed out to consultancies. In general, though, it would be difficult to stray too far without the whistle being blown.

[Will]

Malcolm G going into the ferry business - now that's an interesting idea.

If the idea of storing peronal data on one's movements, habits etc gives a feeling of unease, as it should, then we should all refuse to have things like credit cards and, in particular, Tesco loyalty cards. What makes me uneasy is the idea of data stored on ID cards falling into the wrong hands. As there was a recent news story about processing of government data being sent to India to save money I can't help feeling that is a real possibility. 

[urko]

Will

You are quite right about the Tesco/Credit card analogy. However these aren't compulsory and not all the data is held in one place - so if one set of data is compromised, it doesn't have implications beyond that data.  Of course if all your spending is at Tesco or on one card, the effect would be similar - except Tesco haven't asked for anyone's fingerprint and iris scan data.  I also have a choice not to have a Tesco card (and I don't) - but I won't have a choice not to have a government card.

Cheers

Urko 

[andyh4]

[quote]Andy I don't mind telling the TV licence, Revenue and Customs etc, where I live. I don't see where this gets extended to the government needing my Iris scan and fingerprints, and selling verificatio...[/quote]

Failures of the data protection act - not aware of any major breaches by any UK electricity company, so what's the beef?

Use of the card to track your every mobement - There seems to be a basic assumption here that because the governement could use ID cards to do this, that it wants to and will - assuming you are not suspected of some heinous crime (defrauding the IR of 75p for example).  Think of the amount of work necessary to track 70 odd million people.  You'd need a computer about the size of a Kray to track and analyse and then another 70 odd million people to read and analyse the results.

 

Hey Urko, perhaps you're right perhaps this is a plot.  Tony Blair intends to end world poverty by employing 70 million Africans to track UK residents

[urko]

Andy

I'm not too worried about this government tracking my movements - except in so far as it has nothing to do with them.  I do worry about the creation of that data for every citizen and the use it could be put to by criminals (either by hacking or duress on the humans who do have access), or by a future government.  By starting this off, we're not just trusting the current lot, we're trusting all future governments with our data.

Urko

[urko]

By the way - I don't view this as a sinister plot.  I think it is an ill-considered populist policy that hasn't been properly thought through.  I don't think it would solve any of the problems that the government claims (and they seem to be changing their mind about what it is for each week), and I think it would be a huge waste of money.

[Racerbear02]

One thing that does not seem to have come up in this discussion is that one of the reasons given for the introduction of such cards was to counter terrorism and terrorist acts, all the more valid it would appear after this morning's acts in London.

But do people really think that a bit of plastic will stop terrorists?? they will probably have valid cards before the rest of the population of the UK. The same can be said for criminals and fraudsters, 'what man has made, man can make again', and in light of the UK government's past display of expertise with technological projects.................

If I still lived in the UK I would refuse point blank to carry one, not paranoid, I just do not see the governmental need to know so much about me and my actions. I do not attempt to be stealthy in my actions, I leave sufficient of a trail around by my use of credit cards etc. I carry sufficient proof of identity, why to I need another one? especially with so much information on it?? and if this card is lost or stolen then identity theft takes on a whole new meaning.

When I moved to France I got a Titre de Sejour, their country, their rules, and it would be wrong for me to make a decision to change my life by moving to another country then complain about the rules in my newly adopted homeland, besides it does come in useful on occasions. The TdS is however a completely different thing to the proposed ID card for the UK in terms of data on it and its uses.

As I now live full time in France but still have a UK passport, will I be obliged to have a UK ID card??

Just remember 1984 is only 21 years away

[Teamedup]

I agree racerbear that ID cards would not have stopped this today at all.

[urko]

I'd prefer not to speculate about whether ID cards could have prevented today's events.  Although I am implacably opposed and will never willingly carry one, it's just too early to say until we know the circumstances under which the bombs were planted.  However, we do know that ID cards didn't prevent 9/11 or the Madrid bombings so it's hard to see how they could have prevented today's.

[urko]

Now we know a little more, it seems that the bombers were not worried about being identified - it seems they were even carrying ID.  There would therefore appear to be no argument for ID cards based on terrorism.

[Missy]

[quote]Now we know a little more, it seems that the bombers were not worried about being identified - it seems they were even carrying ID. There would therefore appear to be no argument for ID cards based o...[/quote]

Of course they did not worry about being identified.

They callously knew that this was going to be their last day, ID card or not.

[Btuckey]

Andyh4 said:

"You'd need a computer about the size of a Kray........"

Ronnie or Reggie?

Anyway, I think that we should all be chipped.  It doesn't seem to have disadvantaged my cat.

Brian 11500

[andyh4]

Of course in this case ID cards would not have affected the people perpitrating the act.  Doubtfully it might have helped identify anyone who might have come to the UK to guide and lead them.

 

But certainly it would have helped the emergency services identify the victims and inform the poor unfortunate relatives who have had an unbearable wait for confirmation of their worst fears.

[urko]

[quote]Of course in this case ID cards would not have affected the people perpitrating the act. Doubtfully it might have helped identify anyone who might have come to the UK to guide and lead them. But ...[/quote]

Only if;

They were compulsory

Everyone always remembered to carry theirs at all times

No-one ever carried anyone else's

no forgeries were ever made

they were indestructible

I wouldn't mind betting people had credit cards, driving licences and so - but DNA and dental evidence has still been necessary.  In short, they would have been of little or no value.

[Dick Smith]

I wasn't going to come back to this post, but I think there are two very important points being missed here.

Of course ID cards would not have stopped the bombings on Thursday, Charles Clarke has said so explicitly. What they would have done would have been to make it harder for terrorists to move unseen in society. If, for example, in order to open a bank account or a mobile phone agreement you had to prove who you were that would restrict the terrorist's freedom of movement. And so on in a dozen ways that I haven't thought of, but I can bet you someone at the Home Office has.

Secondly some people, rightly or wrongly, fear that their civil liberties will be eroded because their right to anonymity will be abrogated. But in the past week in the UK it has been suggested that road charging will apply on a wide range of roads, and to administer it all cars will be fitted with a transponder which will show which roads have been used. This raised a fuss - but only over the principle and level of charging, when any government in future could track all of your movements and record them for later use. Now I find that just a bit spooky. We are now talking about the retention of mobile phone and email records - not the calls or the emails themselves, but when and from where they were made, and to whom. As each mobile phone passes into a cell it leaves a record, so again we are back into tracking, checking networks.

Add those two things to the ID card and you have a lot of surveillance. I assume that in the case of all but a few thousand people it will never be used, and the ones to be scrutinised will be terrorists and other assorted criminals. But the powers will be there - do we want to go down that route for greater security?

Personally I would say yes, and also yes to a national (or international) DNA database. Opponents have to be very clear on what grounds they oppose, as this can become a self-identifying act.

Last point - the cards will not be easy to forge. I have not seen any evidence on the use of forged photo-id driving licences (I suspect those figures could only be crowbarred out of the DVLA by a Parliamentary Question, and possibly not then) but they will have to refer back to the national database, and that will contain a very wide range of information, so it won't be possible for a person to just appear, as in the case of simply creating a false person, or to reappear after several years, as in the case of the 'Day of the Jackal' type of ID fraud which is currently so popular. I assume that the cards will be hard to clone, as apart from anything else there will appear to be two people with the same details

However, as I found out this week that the National Pupil Database has a number of boys apparently called 'Rebecca' (into 3 figures I believe) then perhaps the saviour of the antis will be good old fashioned incompetence...

[urko]

Hi Dick

I don't fully understand the bank account/mobile phone scenario (I'm not being deliberately obtuse).  At present one has to produce quite a bit of ID for a bank account - so I'm not sure what we'd gain from the ID card. 

I accept what you say at a level of sophisticated forgery - although I would imagine organised criminals would certainly try their best to forge such a card.  However, producing a convincing forgery with a photo that would pass any visual inspection, would surely be quite easy.  For example, I'm not sure of the circumstances you alluded to before regarding a car crash - but had you asked to see the guy's ID card you would have presumably checked the name etc and that the photo looked liked him?

I think you may well be right about the whole thing being sunk by incompetance - but I'd prefer it not to get to that stage.  According to Accountancy Age, the government has already spent £18m on this.  Sadly, I think you have seen a common feature of databases (I have worked on a lot) which is not very well understood by the politicians.

As an anti, I'm very clear about the roots of my objection - I don't see the need for me to give my fingerprints and eye scans to the government in order for them to issue me with a licence to exist.  They are supposed to work for me.  The cost is a secondary issue (although there are so many better ways we could spend £5.8 billion). If I could see a logical justification, for the good of society, I might consider it, but I don't feel that case has been made.

[Dick Smith]

What I meant was that terrorists (or drug dealers for that matter) need bank accounts and are heavily dependant on mobile phones. Terrorists, in particular, seem to use a lot. Once you have a bank or phone account that can be used to open other doors, so to make it harder to do slows them down a little. It won't stop them, but it will slow them down.

I can't check on the car crash thing, but I think you are right.

There is an article in either today's Times Online or BBC News that there is now a proposal for a much simpler ID card, without the biometric data.

In the end it comes down to a value judgement. Your case is valid, but for me other concerns are more important.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/08/id_card_as_passport/

[urko]

Hmm - interesting link, Dick, thanks for that.  I'd be interested in knowing how many people travel to each destination - for example, in the last five years I have travelled to the USA, New Zealand, Switzerland, Austria, The Maldives and France (several times - perhaps no surprise given my presence on here).  I suspect that I'd still need a full passport for the more far-flung destinations.  At a simple practical level they stamped my passport, which they couldn't have done for an ID card.  I have no idea how usual/unusual my pattern of travel is for the "average" passport holder.

As it happens, I now choose not to visit the USA because I don't trust them to safeguard the fingerprint data they would collect if I visited (apparently Jeremy Clarkson said much the same on telly recently - Thatcher and Clarkson as allies - this is worrying - can't stand either of 'em) , but that is at least a choice I can make.

Presumably, if the card allowed EU visits and that's what most people do, and it only cost £30 or so, I can see it might be popular.

[Viv]

I read on a Government website today that the ID cards would be necessary for Residents of the UK and Foriegn nationals, so if you are living elsewhere and not a resident, you shouldn't need one. Yippee!

 I did wonder, if the issuing of the cards is linked to UK passports, how it would be able to easily issue cards to foriegn nationals. Will it be another CSA / Tax Credits style c/o/c/k up?