Is school in France better than in England?

[Clair]

Often discussed on the forum...

Is school in France better than in England?

Article (and comments) in the Telegraph.

[Kitty]

Clair.  I saw and read this article and thought about posting it but decided against it because one of the Forum's regular posters gets irritated about anyone posting Daily Telegraph (or Daily Mail) articles.  However, it was selected as the Editor's Choice of articles to read for today in the newspaper.

I thought that the article was a bit light and fluffy, so was surprised that the Editor picked it, but it did cover quite a lot of ground and I didn't disagree (deliberate double negative) with the content.

 

[Clair]

A bit lightweight and generalised.

It would be interesting to see a more in-depth article which would bring attention to the huge differences in style and content between the English and the French education systems (and I'm not taking sides...[Www])

[BIG MAC]

I have long held the belief that Scottish Education is superior to its' English counterpart.

The value in colouring in is that you absorb the significance of th einformation whether it be relief mapping or demographics..the colouring in is simply a learning aid.

Learning a poem verbatim in any language will broaden the horizons and teach word play.

Learning by rote does work as anyone who did their times tables as a child should be able to testify...we all know what 7 x 9 =  with little thought.......don't we?

[Russethouse]

 From reading posts over the years, one complaint many mention is the way the French system fails to encourage creativity, and some one mentioned it the article too. 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="BIG MAC"]

 

Learning by rote does work as anyone who did their times tables as a child should be able to testify...we all know what 7 x 9 =  with little thought.......don't we?

[/quote]Well, all it did for me was mean that to remember what 7x9 is I have to go through the entire times table to get the answer.  A complete waste of time - surely better to learn arithmetic by using numbers, not mindlessly repeating tables by rote?  My mental arithmetic was always lousy until I started watching Countdown in my 30s (really!) - a much more interesting way of learning to manipulate and use numbers than times tables. Do you really believe that learning things by heart makes you appreciate them more?  To my mind all it does is rob a poem or piece of prose of its heart and soul and turn it into a chore, not the thing of beauty intended by the writer.

 But each to his/her own I guess - which is why I believe that education needs to be varied according to the person receiving it - we all learn in different ways and unless this is acknowledged, then unfortunate groups of children will be left behind through no fault of their own.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="BIG MAC"]

 

Learning by rote does work as anyone who did their times tables as a child should be able to testify...we all know what 7 x 9 =  with little thought.......don't we?

[/quote]Well, all it did for me was mean that to remember what 7x9 is I have to go through the entire times table to get the answer.  A complete waste of time - surely better to learn arithmetic by using numbers, not mindlessly repeating tables by rote?  My mental arithmetic was always lousy until I started watching Countdown in my 30s (really!) - a much more interesting way of learning to manipulate and use numbers than times tables. Do you really believe that learning things by heart makes you appreciate them more?  To my mind all it does is rob a poem or piece of prose of its heart and soul and turn it into a chore, not the thing of beauty intended by the writer.

 But each to his/her own I guess - which is why I believe that education needs to be varied according to the person receiving it - we all learn in different ways and unless this is acknowledged, then unfortunate groups of children will be left behind through no fault of their own.

[/quote]

Coop, how on earth do you do rapid multiplication (as in 7 x 9, 5 x 12, 6 x 7 etc) by 'manipulating numbers' If you learn the 'times table' by rote, the answer just pops into your head.

edit You dont have to 'appreciate' that 6 x 7 is 42, you just have to know it

[cooperlola]

[quote user="powerdesal"], the answer just pops into your head.


[/quote]No it doesn't.  I have to go 1 x 7 =7,  2x7=14 and so on - I don't "just know it"because I learnt it as part of a "table", not a single entity.  7s and 8s are the worst because I cannot see a pattern, as one can with, say, 9 x tables. 

[Kitty]

The poems that my son (10) are learning here in France, I believe, he will remember for all his life.  He can recite all of the poems that he has learned this year.  When he brought his first poem home to learn, I thought that it was cruel.  After all, it was in old French and it was only his second year here.  Over the course of this year, I have changed my mind and think that it is a good discipline for the brain.

When I show my UK friends his poetry book, they are stunned about how hard it must be.  There is no way that the Brits in the UK would expect a Year 5 child (aged 9 or 10) to recite Blake, Keats, Wordsworth etc.  Well done the French for striving for excellence in education.

[Clarkkent]

... Over the course of this year, I have changed my mind and think that it is a good discipline for the brain...

... Well done the French for striving for excellence in education.

Is he expected to discuss the imagery contained within the poems? Is he expected to analyse the linguistic devices which make them poems and not prose? Is he expected to compare and contrast the uses of language by different poets? ... Or does he just have to recite - parrot fashion - the poems?

If the latter, then I see no evidence of "excellence" nor do I see "discipline for the brain", just discipline.

[Clair]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]Is he expected to discuss the imagery contained within the poems? Is he expected to analyse the linguistic devices which make them poems and not prose? Is he expected to compare and contrast the uses of language by different poets? ... Or does he just have to recite - parrot fashion - the poems?

If the latter, then I see no evidence of "excellence" nor do I see "discipline for the brain", just discipline.[/quote]

Way back when I was at school in France, we used to have to learn poems (récitations) "par coeur". We would go through in class it line by line, the teacher explained the meaning of the words, why this word  and not that one, then we would learn it and recite it in front of the class, hopefully with the correct rhythm and emphasis.

Later on, I learnt about the various types of verse and how they form types of poems (sonnet, rondeau, calligrammes...)

I still remember quite a few from some 40 years ago and still have quite a few schoolbooks too [:)]

(Les sanglots longs des violons de l'automne... Paul Verlaine)

(La cigale ayant chanté tout l'été... Jean de la Fontaine)

(A noir, E blanc, I rouge... Arthur Rimbaud)

(Demain, dès l'aube, à l'heure où blanchit la campagne,

je partirai. Vois-tu, je sais que tu m'attends... a beautiful poem by Victor Hugo to the daughter he had lost)

[Wendy]

No.

[:)]

Hope everyone is well and enjoying the summer[;-)]

[Sprogster]

I believe I am correct in saying that the French government are critical of their educational system for many of the reasons expounded by members of this forum, and are trying to change it. The problem being the entrenched and heavily unionised French teaching profession.

 

[babcock]

I went to a "progressive" primary school in greater London, back when Adam was a lad and times tables were not taught. As an adult I had lots of problems with arithmetic due to this although I achieved a good GCE in Maths.

[Panda]

Hello All

I'm now back in the UK so will be able to give my view on this in the future.  I have already said before I feel that the lack of creative thinking for example to write an essay or a poem not just learn one week in week out I feel is a big problem in France.  Lack of IT was also a big issue for me.

My son will be assessed next week on his ability to integrate with his peers in the english system, this will be tough for him after 6 years in French school. 

Panda

[5-element]

[quote user="Clair"]

Way back when I was at school in France, we used to have to learn poems (récitations) "par coeur".

I still remember quite a few from some 40 years ago [/quote]

Me too, just like Clair.

I don't remember the same poems as Clair though - but I remember whole ones -( mind you, I also remember whole passages in latin from  Catholic Sunday mass, which I can chant anytime - never fails to impress... "Pater noster qui es in celis, Sanctificetur etc...."[geek]

I remember whole monologues from Racine, poems by Prévert, Fables de la Fontaine, of course. They seem very deeply embedded, and it is not just the parrot fashion learning that remains - whole context is there, and the atmosphere -  no, it isn't just some shallow exercise....and as Clair intimated, with poetry, you learn about rhythm, melody, etc...

As for multiplication tables, I learned them in the same way, same I presume, as Cooperlola, but somehow, they stuck so that I don't have to recite the whole table to find out 7 x 8 for instance. Each item is deeply ingrained in my brain, and I believe, contributed to giving me much confidence with arithmetics.

[Chancer]

I use simple and often complex mental arithmetic each and every day when working, you have to really know the times tables by heart (ideally up to 20 times 20) in order to do more complex multiplications and divisions, even if to only 3 significant figures. Squares and square roots are also usefull to remember, the mind is like everything else if you dont exercise it you lose its capacity, that which you dont use often or for a long time you tend to lose.

I completely understand what Cooperlola is saying though as I have a mental block with the days of the week in French and often say thursday when I mean Friday, to be sure of not making an error I have to count in my head, "lundi, mardi, mercredi, jeudi.......... etc etc.

Sixteen and seventeen also give me problems, its a kind of dyslexia I think as its only those two plus of course 76, 77, 96 and 97, in my head there is an imaginary dix-six between seize and dix-huit!

I do now use French numbers when counting in my head though.

Do they still teach, and more importantly test pupils on the times tables in the UK? Do they/did they in France?

[cooperlola]

Happily nowadays nobody minds if I use a calculator.[Www]

I'm glad some people got a real benefit from that parrot learning of poetry etc (and always a lot of Shakespeare for us) because it just made me hate the things with a vengeance.  I guess it's just something I'm lousy at so it had a truly negative effect on me, as with the times tables.  But at least that only prevented me from being good at mental arithmetic.  Teaching a kid to hate great literature (or the bits one was forced to learn by heart at any rate) was a truly negative achievement, imo.

[Russethouse]

 I think individual teachers make a big difference. I still enjoy reading non fiction history (and fiction too) and I'm sure that it is due to having a great teacher who made history come alive for the whole class ....

I managed to learn enough tables that I can usually get by and we also had to learn quite a few hymns by heart, we were not allowed hymn books when visitors came to the school, the hymns are a bit rusty now though...use it or lose it is right [;-)]

[powerdesal]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="powerdesal"], the answer just pops into your head.

[/quote]No it doesn't.  I have to go 1 x 7 =7,  2x7=14 and so on - I don't "just know it"because I learnt it as part of a "table", not a single entity.  7s and 8s are the worst because I cannot see a pattern, as one can with, say, 9 x tables. [/quote]

Wel, I suppose each of us is different. I must have a 'mathematical' brain. I learnt the tables at junior school. It really hacks me off when people look sideways at you when you do a simple calculation in your head and they have to check with a calculator to prove you were right in the first place. They just dont appreciate the comment ''Its not rocket science'', maybe it is, perhaps thats why I went into Engineering.

[Chancer]

Not ridiculous at all, I use the same method for working out larger figures in my head like 38 times 72.

In fact puzzled you have the maths brain and more importantly the savvy to now how to use it, you only lack the retention of the rote learning (just as I do with 16 and 17 in french) which is nothing to be ashamed of.

Use it or lose it!

I started going to church in the last couple of years, both in France and England and was shocked to find that I struggled to remember the words to the lords prayer.

And yet I can still recite parrot fashion the general solution to a quadratic equation, the sine and cosine rules  or all of the equations of motion, none of which means that I have a mathematical brain.

[Kitty]

Speaking of cosine etc rules, Anyone remember:

Old Andrew Threw (Opposite / Adjacent = Tangent)

All His Cares (Adjacent / Hypot = Cosine)

Over His Shoulder (Opp / Hypot = Sine)

Presumably there are French mnemonics aswell?

[Clair]

[quote user="Cathy"]

Speaking of cosine etc rules, Anyone remember:

Old Andrew Threw (Opposite / Adjacent = Tangent)

All His Cares (Adjacent / Hypot = Cosine)

Over His Shoulder (Opp / Hypot = Sine)

Presumably there are French mnemonics aswell?

[/quote] [blink] [blink] [blink] [blink]

I am going to lie down for a few minutes...

[Chancer]

Yes Cathy I use it all the time, and when I am lacking a right angle I often use the sine rule (a/sineA = b/sineB = c/sineC) , only once in recent years did I need to use the cosine rule and I had to look it up

At school the pnemonic was

Silly old Harry (sine = opp/hyp)

catches a herring (cos = adj/hyp)

to offer Agnes (tang = opp/adj)

Which I felt was a stupid childish rhyme and I never liked repeating it.

When I started technical college, the cool hip lecturer had a pnemonic much more in keeping with us young ados and that consequently was remembered. You will have to fill in the gaps as I dont dare post it

T**s off and s**t over Harry Carpenters a**e-h**e [6]

[DancingFairy]

We learned SOHCAHTOA, which almost rhymes with Krakatoa.   Sine-Opposite/Hypotenuse, Cosine-Adjacent/Hypotenuse, Tangent-Opposite/Adjacent.

There are elements of education in France which could (or should) be better (and occasionally they are), but there are problems and attitudes inherent in the system that can quickly and effectively outweigh the positive elements.