The Special Relationship - US & UK or US & France?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Hoddy"]"Hoddy doesn't do irony very well."

Clearly not.

I was trying to make it plain that I feel little more than contempt for most of them.

Hoddy[/quote]

I realised that completely, Hoddy.

Was simply extending the concept, rather.

Plus trying to express an inescapable conclusion.

[woolybanana]

Like most countries, UK needs an elite to run it. Frankly I wouldnt give much for a PM from MukMuk university

[Quillan]

[quote user="pachapapa"]I returned to blast him into outer space....[/quote]

Oh dear [:(]

[quote user="pachapapa"]..now completely deflated with a blank mind....what can I say....[/quote]

Christ, thats a first.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I think the point is Hoddy that's all well and good but what 'real world' experience have they had. More importantly what 'connection' do they have with the people and in particular, as I have said before, their hopes, aspirations and expectations. When do they sit and listen (or just plain listen) to the people rather than take the attitude of that having gone to university and studied the subjects you have given that they know best and the people should just shut up and do as they are told. This is the attitude of all the 'major' parties these days and like many I am fed up with being talked down to, taken for a fool and generally lied too which is my secondary reason for leaving the UK. I also get really angry when I read UK newspapers and what goes on there, not always the big things but the day to day things and to think I was so stupid as to give so many years of my life to the country, willing to even die for it and for what? It is no longer a country of mine and whilst I may have to visit it (only if I can't possibly avoid it) I have no intention of going back there to live.[/quote]

This touched me: and made me think. Which is why I am only now commenting.

I believe it is very sad: when anyone, who has been prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for their country and has enjoyed an exemplary military career, is forced to come to terms with what has happened to his/her nation.

Since I feel precisely the same, Quillan's passionate statements chime with me.

I can well remember when as a scout, I sat right at the front of the theatre with my late Dad, watching the Gang Show: unwittingly, Dad had booked the very day when HM The Queen and her Consort were to grace the show by her royal presence. I sneaked a look up and to my right and there she was: the mythical woman who was queen. I was so proud then to be British and one of her subjects.

Years ago I was intensely patriotic and proud to be British as an adult: Britain was then one of the greatest nation states in the whole World.

Its systems of parliament, jurisprudence and justice were the envy of the World.

Now, it's a laughing stock: and a parody of what it was.

I, like Quillan, wish to leave: and never return unless really essential.

Modern Britain has absolutely nothing in common with the place I grew up in and started my adult life and marriage.

Perhaps worse, I have nothing in common with Britain.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Like most countries, UK needs an elite to run it. Frankly I wouldnt give much for a PM from MukMuk university[/quote]

Utterly disagree, Woolly.

What is needed is Competence: not political games, ideology, polemic and self-preferment.

Plus a soupçon of Integrity.

[Hoddy]

I agree with almost everything you say Gluestick.

I wonder if it's a generational thing ? In my early life most prime ministers had served in the war. I think the last fling of that was Macmillan's emotional appeal to Thatcher on behalf of the miners. Even she had some small experience outside politics.

Now all we have is career politicians.

Hoddy

[Quillan]

Well Gluey I'm glad you didn't put the words political and integrity in the same sentence. [;-)]

I come from a family with a long military history going back several generations although most army and Royal Marines. I despise propaganda and word twisting and an excellent example is the mis-information created under the last government and propagated by the current when in opposition and will no doubt continue now they are in government. I am talking about the campaign to 'make' the public support the troops in 'conflicts' abroad.

It is my strong believe that the British public have always and will continue to support the armed forces, what they don't support is the armed conflicts they are involved in. What the politicians did was twist this and imply that the public were not behind them, a touch of "they (the public) can't possibly be upset with us so they must be aiming their anger at the armed forces", well that clearly was and is not true. To me these parades of the forces through the streets are not, in one respect, for the benefit of the forces but for the government. It absolutely stinks of the the British problem of not taking responsibility and that rather than 'owning problems' they rather point at the other fella and "It was him, nothing to do with us". The sad thing is that when you see these parades on the TV and the amount of people there the government thinks the country supports the conflict but they don't, they simply support the armed forces. Form most, and backed up by so many opinion polls, nothing would make the British public more happy than to have our armed forces bought back from Iraq and Afghanistan immediately, we should never have been there in the first place. Strange really because if we every had any form of 'right' to go in to another country it would by Zimbabwe having contributed greatly both directly and indirectly to the situation there and then turning our backs on those trying to leave.

A change of subject, I see they are going to close about three jails and loose in excess of 800 'places' for criminals. There's this idiot (just like all the other before him) saying the public want to see better justice then he does this and says that offenders for minor crimes can be better served by putting them back in to society and making them work off the 'tariff'. People are fed up with minimum sentences and people getting 'let off', what they want to see is justice and these people locked away, segregated from society. People don't want to walk around wondering if they are going to get burgled, mugged, their child run over and killed by the guy who last year got done for killing somebody by drink driving and let off, beaten up or worse, they want to feel safe and to be able to get on with life and enjoy it.

Perhaps it's all these laws that have taken responsibility away from individuals over the last 15 to 20 years coupled with the mistake of not understanding that if you take them away you have to give them to somebody else, all well and good when your on the 'high' but you have to remember they are the same responsibilities when your on the 'low'.

In some ways I feel ashamed of the way I think and feel about the UK now but I just can't help it. I, like Gluey, once loved my country with a passion. I remember coming back from the Falklands and we hit the UK coast, it was a beautiful sunny day with no clouds. As we flew across country and the fields opened up in front of us and you saw the steeples and towers of the village churches, well it bought a tear to your eye. Flying at night over the UK, seeing the little villages, towns and cites is a wonder to behold twinkling away in to the distance, absolutely fantastic. This feeling that you were up there watching over those people and protecting them (from what I never really knew) whilst they slept in their beds or went about their daily business made one feel extremely proud. Sadly the last time I flew in to the UK and looked out the window as we dropped out of cloud and I saw it for the first time it had absolutely no emotional effect at all, I just felt empty and that's the first time it has ever happened to me.

Well that's enough of me and my maudlin thoughts, off to cook Mrs 'Q's lunch.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I agree with almost everything you say Gluestick.

I wonder if it's a generational thing ? In my early life most prime ministers had served in the war. I think the last fling of that was Macmillan's emotional appeal to Thatcher on behalf of the miners. Even she had some small experience outside politics.

Now all we have is career politicians.

Hoddy[/quote]

A generational thing?

Perhaps: from the perspective of perhaps being older and wiser and having the benefit of time to ponder and make comparisons.

In my analyses and socio-economic and political-economic writings I have concluded one inescapable reality.

Which I have defined as "Government Interference Factor" or GIF.© (Copyright: PDD(R)Ltd)

Back in Super Mac's time - not only was he independently wealthy (MacMillan Publishing House etc), as you say he served his country and king with distinction: on the Somme salient. Perhaps the most awful realisation of modern warfare and mass slaughter - Government did not try to become involved in and control everything.

Now, career politicians have twin objectives, it seems: to leverage their position, amorally, to achieve super-wealth and "fame": and secondly, to interfere in almost every aspect and component of business and personal life on a "The Nanny State Knows Best!" principle.

Unfortunately, this has meant politicians and their civil service apparat are involved in generating "Solutions" to problems they are totally incapable of understanding or comprehending. Worse, they invariably dream up "Solutions" to non-existent problems!

And as GIF has expanded to become almost 100% of everything, taxes have had to expand in lockstep to fund such awesome incompetence.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I come from a family with a long military history going back several generations although most army and Royal Marines. I despise propaganda and word twisting and an excellent example is the mis-information created under the last government and propagated by the current when in opposition and will no doubt continue now they are in government. I am talking about the campaign to 'make' the public support the troops in 'conflicts' abroad.[/quote]

Totally agree. Sadly, as with almost everything, the British public are led by the nose by media: they behave rather like 9 year olds copying each other. One person sticks a tacky bit of cardboard, with a badly written statement in red marker pen on a lamp post saying something like "Happy 40th Daren."; and thereafter, they appear like a fever-induced rash. Same with little bunches of flowers on the side of a road where some fool has obliterated themselves against a wall.

Perhaps the very best (Or worst, really) exemplar of this sort of collective Mesmerism was Princess Diana's death: travelling through London's West End on a tube, the carriages were crammed with little 13 year old etc girlies all clutching bunches of flowers to join in the general paranoia. No one really "Knew" her: she was rarely on TV: just pictures in the papers and magazines.

[quote]It is my strong believe that the British public have always and will continue to support the armed forces, what they don't support is the armed conflicts they are involved in.[/quote]

Again agree, totally. It's a very great shame governments have failed to properly value and support the armed forces too!

I'm old enough (Sadly) to remember VC's widows being compelled to auction their late spouse's medals to try and survive.

[quote]What the politicians did was twist this and imply that the public were not behind them, a touch of "they (the public) can't possibly be upset with us so they must be aiming their anger at the armed forces", well that clearly was and is not true. To me these parades of the forces through the streets are not, in one respect, for the benefit of the forces but for the government. It absolutely stinks of the the British problem of not taking responsibility and that rather than 'owning problems' they rather point at the other fella and "It was him, nothing to do with us". The sad thing is that when you see these parades on the TV and the amount of people there the government thinks the country supports the conflict but they don't, they simply support the armed forces. Form most, and backed up by so many opinion polls, nothing would make the British public more happy than to have our armed forces bought back from Iraq and Afghanistan immediately, we should never have been there in the first place. Strange really because if we every had any form of 'right' to go in to another country it would by Zimbabwe having contributed greatly both directly and indirectly to the situation there and then turning our backs on those trying to leave.[/quote]

Here and there I've been closely involved with certain groups of military personnel: and huge loss of morale owing to government abusing them and treating them as a political tool in pursuit of some knee-jerk, expedient short-term objective, or clearly avoidable situation which they, the politicians failed to properly control, led to utter contempt for politicians often left in disgust: and a growing feeling and credo that the ex-serving personnel's only salvation was an intense sense of belonging to a "Family" be it service, regiment or group. Additionally and perhaps worse, too often military leaders have become both apologists and lickspittles of the political masters.

Perhaps worse, neither government nor services made any provision for what happens to personnel when their service life is done: civvy street discounts them, invariably and finding meaningful work is all but impossible.

Again, completely agree about Zimbabwe. Of course, it lacks oil and gas reserves.......................

[quote]In some ways I feel ashamed of the way I think and feel about the UK now but I just can't help it. I, like Gluey, once loved my country with a passion. I remember coming back from the Falklands and we hit the UK coast, it was a beautiful sunny day with no clouds. As we flew across country and the fields opened up in front of us and you saw the steeples and towers of the village churches, well it bought a tear to your eye. Flying at night over the UK, seeing the little villages, towns and cites is a wonder to behold twinkling away in to the distance, absolutely fantastic. This feeling that you were up there watching over those people and protecting them (from what I never really knew) whilst they slept in their beds or went about their daily business made one feel extremely proud. Sadly the last time I flew in to the UK and looked out the window as we dropped out of cloud and I saw it for the first time it had absolutely no emotional effect at all, I just felt empty and that's the first time it has ever happened to me.

[/quote]

No need whatsoever to feel ashamed, Q; it is not the nation state it once was. Regret, perhaps. Sorrow for what has been lost, definitely.

I used to feel precisely the same when returning from distant places: particularly so when I was flying BA. I felt safe and secure: and revelled in BA's captain's announcements. Even with distance to fly I was "Home".