Trial emigration

[Chancer]

My reply to this is somewhat tongue in cheek so please dont take offence

 

[quote user="Quillan"]

Well Betty thats why down here at least the criteria is simple "Do you complete a French tax return every year?". If the answer is "Yes" then you are classed as resident. If the answer is "No" then you are not resident.

Thats a very sensible and pragmatic view, you could add on the rider that if you dont but you should then you are also French tax resident, any assessments can be backdated but also so can déclarations, I will be doing a couple soon.

With regards to the EHIC card the question is quite simple "Have you been here less that three months?". If the answer is yes they say "Prove it" like with flight or fery ticket. If the person says they can't then they say "well pay now and claim it back when you get home".

But the question isnt asked is it, and by whom would it be asked by? If it were there  not here  then it would be the UK asking, I think any fraud detection that they do will be concerned with falsified factures from non existant cliniques run by Ivory Coast types.

Perhaps it is easier to see why now in Spain thats exactly what you do, pay when treated and claim it back when you return to the UK.

[/quote]

[EuroTrash]

Yes of course you would get emergency treatment if you went into premature labour on holiday or had a miscarriage or something, because emergency treatment is covered by EHICs.

What you wouldn't get is all the routine pre-natal tests and care because that isn't emergency.

Going back to the question of residence (sorry), what they used to say is that you must have accommodation "available to you". The wording they use may have changed but I would think the concept is still the same. If your UK house is cleared of all your personal possessions and rented out it is not available to you, and if you are not on any council tax register and you all your possessions are in a French house that belongs to you, well what would you decide. If someone is purely on a 12 month trip around Europe it's different because for one thing they presumably have all their stuff stashed somewhere in the UK, most people don't take all their possessions backpacking with them; if it's a young person they may even still be on the council tax register at their mum and dad's. Secondly, everyone has to be resident somewhere, and if they don't own a house in any other country then there is no other contender so obviously they are still UK resident. I think that the 3 month rule would only ever potentially cause a problem if there is some reason to query a person's country of residence and therefore their entitlement to be a member of the NHS. The point at which it will come to light is when the UK is asked for the money, either by you if you pay upfront or by France if they accept your EHIC. And if France accepted your EHIC, and the UK says no that's not one of ours, France will come to you for the money instead.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Interesting that since the law changed in the UK on the 1st July (as pointed ut to be previously and now I found it on the web) you can't claim for "co-payment" which would be for instance seeing a doctor will cost you 23 Euros which you cannot now claim back. It would be the same for consultants which cost just over 40 Euros and some other treatment. It will however pay up to 80% of your hospital bill so for every 100 Euros cost you will have to pay 20 Euros out of your own pocket which you cannot claim back. It is all in the links above.

Thats not correct Quillan, its only the 30% part which a French national or their mutuelle would have to pay, had the UK EHIC rules (for want of a better word) been correctly implemented then this would never have been repaid, someone claiming back directly in France would not recieve it but people, possibly only some people claiming back in the UK got 100% which was by their own "rules" an error.

Seeing a médecin will not cost an EHIC holder €23 it still costs 30% of the €23 plus one Euro, bet the UK never work that one out, consultants the same although many of them are 100% remboursed, hospital bills by and large are 100% remboursed, all but one of mine have been, the 80% bandied about is to scare people into subscribing to a mutuelle. 

By the way his wife needs to keep her legs crossed. Pregnancy/child birth is absolutly NOT covered by the EHIC card.

No experience of that one but it would surprise me if what you say is true

[/quote]

Did you know that the bulk of the hip operations carried out in the clinique at Abbeville are on UK resident NHS patients? There is also an enterprising soul who arranges them for private patients who cannot wait or are victims of the postcode lottery, the EHIC playing an integral part.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="idun"]Idun is a she not a he!

The number to call about this is 00 44 191 218 1999

[/quote]

My Mom would have done that for me if she was still alive.[:P][:D]

[Chancer]

[quote user="EuroTrash"] I think that the 3 month rule would only ever potentially cause a problem if there is some reason to query a person's country of residence and therefore their entitlement to be a member of the NHS. The point at which it will come to light is when the UK is asked for the money, either by you if you pay upfront or by France if they accept your EHIC. And if France accepted your EHIC, and the UK says no that's not one of ours, France will come to you for the money instead.[/quote]

Now that makes a lot of sense, notwithstanding that I dont believe there is such a 3 month rule applying to a 5 year EHIC and if there were its legality let us assume that it is the case.

Someone who submitting a claim of €20k euros to Newcastle, lets say for childbirth for a laugh, they may well look into it, I hope they are not like the French and pay 10's of millions of Euros to a non existant clinic in les isles comores via a handfull of bent claimants, so they look into it and find that said person has no record of living, working or claiming in the UK for 8 years, then I reckon they would and should refuse to pay however in this modern litigious world they would have to be pretty sure of themselves.

The same claim coming from the Secu in France I dont think would be refused although I agree were it to be so the French would not take any hostages in recovering it, my reasoning is that it is a reciprocal arrangement the UK takes the bills for the foreign EHIC holders on the chin and the other countries likewise, there may be some year end adjustments made but in the scheme of things one or several operations, a childbirth etc is nothing. I reckon their vigilance is for the fraud running into millions like the Comores scam.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"][quote user="Quillan"]

By the way his wife needs to keep her legs crossed. Pregnancy/child birth is absolutly NOT covered by the EHIC card.

[/quote]

 So you are categorically stating that a British woman on holiday in France; and goes into premature labour, would not get emergency treatment free on the  EHIC? Are you sure?
[/quote]

Read the link I gave http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/EEAcountries.aspx

"It also covers you for treatment of pre-existing medical conditions and for routine maternity care, as long as you're not going abroad to give birth. "

[Araucaria]

You must all think me very slow in getting the point, but after reading the links Quillan kindly provided, I still don't see a three-month rule for EHIC cover as provided by the UK, particularly not on the "France" section of the NHS link that idun posted. It would have been very easy for the UK government to have spelled it out in unequivocal terms if they had wished to.

As for those EU directives, having read the explanatory EU document (and no, it's true, I haven't read the actual directives), these say that EU countries all have to allow you to stay for at least three months, and for at least six months if you are actually seeking work. They do not require any EU country to adopt a rule making you unable to stay for longer than the three or six month periods: that's left to the discretion of member states. The comprehensive health cover requirement might well be provided by the UK's provision of an EHIC, and in practical terms (which is all I have ever been asking about) I haven't heard here on this forum anyone saying that they, or someone they know, has been refused medical treatment in France because they have been here longer than three months.

But maybe the simple answer for my friends is that they should make sure that their parents in the UK keep a room for them, and use that as their address when they are away, and that they should make a visit back to the UK not less often than once every three months, making sure they keep copies of the ferry/airline tickets. As I've said previously, Mr Foaf will be looking for work in the UK while he's in France, and chances are the more promising job interviews (and hopefully he will get some) will be face-to-face ones. If the system does have to played like this (and I am not yet entirely convinced it does) then this would seem a modest cost of doing so.

[Benjamin]

It makes me laugh when people say that you may be asked to show plane or ferry tickets to prove when you arrived.

O K, that takes care of the Brits. What about all the other Northern Europeans who simply drive across borders?

[YCCMB]

I do get the impression that a lot of people a VERY hung up on this "three month rule" which, depending on what you're trying to apply it to, is a lot of smoke and mirrors.

It's not the only, nor indeed the key criterion upon which you're likely to be "assessed" if you spend a lot of time in another country. And, in any case, it's part of a number of items on a much longer checklist which is used to assess where people are tax resident, and generally only really matters to enable HMRC and other tax authorities to catch the super-rich who are continually on the move and/or trying to duck and dive in order to pay little or no tax anywhere. If you're paying UK tax, NI or whatever, and choose to take a sabbatical, or go on an extended holiday. do you really think anyone in authority gives a s*** about it? Nobody's ever going to say to you "Oh, no, you can't go and spend six/eight/nine/twelve months in another country because it will effectively make you non-resident for tax purposes" Quite the reverse, I would expect, in the case of someone on a round-the-world trip, for example. More like "Yes, go off for a year, but don't forget to leave enough money in the bank to pay your taxes when you get back, because you still live here, you know".

If, on the other hand, you categorically declare yourself to have left the UK, and make the corresponding declarations to advise another country's tax authorities that you've moved in, then that's a whole other story.

My overall impression is that, as long as you are prepared and registered to pay your taxes somewhere, then your problems will be fewer than if you try to stay under the radar in several places. And before anyone comes out of the silly corner, I don't mean by that that I think it's OK to move permanently to France and somehow try to remain a UK taxpayer. I'm still assuming we're discussing a temporary period of extended holiday in another country.

And I'd still like to bet you could take out extended holiday insurance AND rent out your UK house. Presumably you'd be able to stay with friends or extended family if you couldn't turf out your lodgers when you were airlifted home, should the worst happen. And if you needed airlifting home in the first place, I venture to suggest that they're hardly going to go to all that trouble if, on arrival in the UK, you're fit and healthy enough to go immediately back home and not to hospital.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Araucaria"]You must all think me very slow in getting the point, but after reading the links Quillan kindly provided, I still don't see a three-month rule for EHIC cover as provided by the UK, particularly not on the "France" section of the NHS link that idun posted. It would have been very easy for the UK government to have spelled it out in unequivocal terms if they had wished to.

[/quote]

Chancer had the same problem but I see he got it in the end. It is not what the UK offers it is what France accepts. Using your example the card is valued for five years (I think you said) but that is imotive because the French (and other EU countries as per the link I gave) say yes we accept it for up to three  months. My French issued card is valid for one year and I can renew it via the Internet. Using your example it would mean I am covered for one year if I went to the UK but somebody from the UK gets five years. The time period is just for how long the card lasts before you need to renew it and nothing to do with how it is used or for how long it is used in a particular country.

[EuroTrash]

@ Araucaria -"The comprehensive health cover requirement might well be provided by the UK's provision of an EHIC"

Hmm. Do you think any French fonc would let you have your cake and eat it quite so blatantly? - claim that you'd been residing legally in France, by virtue of having had comprehensive healthcare provided by the UK on the basis that you were living in the UK.

I think your last paragraph is a very sensible solution. It avoids all potential problems and they still get what they want.

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="NickP"][quote user="Quillan"]

By the way his wife needs to keep her legs crossed. Pregnancy/child birth is absolutly NOT covered by the EHIC card.

[/quote]

 So you are categorically stating that a British woman on holiday in France; and goes into premature labour, would not get emergency treatment free on the  EHIC? Are you sure?

[/quote]

Read the link I gave http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/EEAcountries.aspx

"It also covers you for treatment of pre-existing medical conditions and for routine maternity care, as long as you're not going abroad to give birth. "

[/quote]

I wasn't questioning the link, I was questioning your statement, "Pregnancy/child birth is absolutly NOT covered by the EHIC card". Still I wont hold my breath to hear you say OK, I'll give you that point.

[andyh4]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]So, just for the sake of (further) argument, let's imagine the case of someone who genuinely does go off travelling for a year, with every intention of returning to the UK thereafter, BUT who doesn't actually own a UK home but rents. (I know, hard to believe, but getting easier by the day...) would they have to carry on paying rent on a property in order to fulfil the criteria for being considered a UK resident? Because if so, that's just plain daft.

[/quote]

I don't know but from a parallel experience I expect the answer is yes they do need to keep paying rent.

I was working in Germany. I commuted home to France and the OH each weekend. I then got a temporary contract to work in France but still working for the German company. I had to continue renting in Germany to maintain my notional German tax residency.

I know this is not an exact parallel, but I think it illustrates how important it is to be able to demonstrate residency in a country where you are no longer effectively resident.

And yes it does seem crazy.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Chancer had the same problem but I see he got it in the end. It is not what the UK offers it is what France accepts. Using your example the card is valued for five years (I think you said) but that is imotive because the French (and other EU countries as per the link I gave) say yes we accept it for up to three  months. The time period is just for how long the card lasts before you need to renew it and nothing to do with how it is used or for how long it is used in a particular country.

[/quote]

That might be true in black and white forumland where EU texts etc are used as the divine gospel, on the ground in France there is no-one to say or who is saying "we only accept this for 3 months",  once the card détails are registered with the secu droits are shown as opened until the expiry date 5 years hence.

It got me thinking of the trio of Young teaching assistants that I befriended last year, they came as part of their studies, organised by their universities and l'éducation nationale, there are hundreds if not thousands of them the length of the country every year. These 3 girls came from England, Germany and Spain, it was really cool as French was our only common language.

They all had social charges deducted at source from their salary as I do from my teaching hours at another lycée, all of them were besieged with requests for certified copies of birth certs etc and despite complying none of them got their carte vitale during the year they were here , they were told from the very start to use their EHIC's/ CEAM's at the doctors and hospital, as they had French bank accounts I helped them to register their cards with the Secu, to get French social security numbers and to get their remboursements direct to their banks, if not without the carte vitales that never came they probably would never have seen any of the money back, as it was they were all pretty healthy.

Now they were told to use their cards during their stay, there was no question of them becoming illegal immigrants after 3 months or being refused treatment, can you imagine the uproar were that the case?

The English girls account showed that she had rights until 2018, I think one of the others was for less time, probably one year like the French, the English girl could return at any time between now and 2018 even without her EHIC and would still be covered.

[powerdesal]

'' My French issued card is valid for one year and I can renew it via the Internet.''

As a bona-fide, tax registered resident of France, my EHIC was issued in UK, specifically stated as being valid for all EU countries EXCEPT France. It is valid for 5 years.

[Quillan]

[quote user="powerdesal"]'' My French issued card is valid for one year and I can renew it via the Internet.'' As a bona-fide, tax registered resident of France, my EHIC was issued in UK, specifically stated as being valid for all EU countries EXCEPT France. It is valid for 5 years.[/quote]

Do you draw a UK state pension?

[idun]

I have looked at all the old emails I have sent and must have deleted one with the exact information re the three month rule  on it from a government web site. I know that I sent it to a friend some time ago, who also no longer has it.

And I know that I sent this to her since I moved back to England as she was taking early retirement and planning on spending more time in her second home in Spain. I suppose that rules could change as have the residual S1's.

Let me get this right, they are tightening up with one hand and not with the other? So no more residual S1's but it doesn't matter as people can use their EHIC's for five years, that simply sounds plain daft to me, I could use other adjectives, but I'll refrain![:-))]

Although it has to be said that an EHIC only gives limited cover and since the UK rules have changed in the way they reimburse, will only cover for emergency and specific treatment  costs in the same way that the french reimburse nationals. So a great big lump can be down to the holder if they have no alternative insurance, when the french would take out top ups.

How many people on here who are retirees who hand S1's (E121's) into the CPAM and had to 'cancel' CEAM cards when the rules changed not that long ago, 2010? and had to apply for an EHIC from Newcastle. When we moved back we initially had to apply for an EHIC and we then had to apply for CEAM cards, so I know it changed.

HOWEVER, we are all obliged to let the authorities know if we have a change of circumstances, it really is up to us to do it and moving abroad is most certainly a change of circumstances.

If it were just me, or us as a couple, then maybe I would take a risk with things...... maybe, but with kids there is no way in hell I'd be risking anything. As I have said, my casse cou youngest was always spraining, and breaking bones, his brother had his moments and even their Dad has had his moments too. I suppose that  the skate boarding, roller blading, roller blading hockey, skiing, maritial arts and rugby all have big injury risks associated with them.

[idun]

powerdesal, if you have a UK state pension a UK issued S1 that you hand into the french authorities, then you wouldn't need an EHIC for France, just everywhere else. And I would hazard a guess that would include the UK too.

[Gardengirl]

Something the couple need to be aware of is that EHICs aren't always accepted at hospitals. Some of you may remember that when my husband was rushed to hospital last year with problems with his gall bladder, his EHIC wasn't accepted. That was despite the hospital having taken a copy of that and his passport plus a fax from Newcastle with stamps all over it saying that he was covered. Not because we can't speak French, but because the EHIC and the fax from Newcastle weren't printed in French! I had to pay €70 deposit, then €700 to get him out of hospital. We did receive a refund, but that was several months later, when our government paid the money to the French. A good reserve of cash could be needed in similar circumstances.

[Chancer]

Thats frustrating!

Had you taken the card, ID, RIB etc to the assurance maladie office they would have registered you which would have given you a social security number, the hospitals like those as they can just type into their computer and see that they will be paid.

Worth doing and then the remboursements come direct to your French bank account.

[idun]

I don't think GG is a french resident so couldn't be registered with the CPAM.

[EuroTrash]

Since when did CPAM give French social security numbers to visitors from the UK, on the basis of them having an EHIC card?

It's S1s CPAM want to see.

[Chancer]

Since the last decade, maybe even the last century.

Residency doesnt come into it, for them to rembourse to a French bank account they need a RIB, the EHIC and une pièce d'identité. A social securité number is generated to facilitate it. 

[EuroTrash]

Yes of course they do when you're claiming a reimbursement, but are you saying that any visitor to France with an EHIC card can go along to CPAM without having had any medical treatment, and ask to be registered and get a social security number just in case they happen to be taken to hospital? I find that hard to believe.

[Chancer]

Not any visitor, they would need a french  address, the girls were sharing an apartment provided by the lycée but they had a bail that they used, a French bank account is also needed. They did it before claiming, I think one of them never saw a doctor at all.