Trial emigration

[Araucaria]

A friend of a friend (call her Mrs Foaf) is considering a trial move to France: stay here a year, and see how things go. If things don't go well, they'd move back to the UK.

I'd be very grateful to hear about anyone's practical experience of the pitalls.

This might sound a bit fanciful (or quite stupid if you prefer), but Mr Foaf is working for a company that looks like it's about to go bust, and rather than spend a miserable year looking for another job in the UK, he'd prefer to try his luck here. The Foafs have two small children, one just primary school age, the other younger. Mrs Foaf does a bit of childminding in the UK.

They could let their house in the UK for a modest amount, so they wouldn't be absolutely penniless. That's one reason for the year's stay: it's tricky to let a house for a shorter period.

I am fairly sure they'd have to cut a few bureaucratic corners: not tell the UK government they'd left the UK, and not register as a taxpayer in France (if their only income was UK-source rental income, even if this went wrong they'd have very little tax to pay in France). They'd make sure they got their car MoTed before they leave, and they'd use it here and keep it legal in the UK.

I don't think they'd expect any state support while in France, beyond sending their children to school - another reason for trying their luck: children learn a foreign language more easily when they're young. They would have some extremely dilapidated accomodation available (nicely situated opposite the primary school in the small village) which they might be able to add value to by making some inexpensive repairs.

I'd be grateful for any help and suggestions.

[Quillan]

Asr as work goes he would need to speak excellent French and bearing in mind it is difficult for the French to find work I think he will find it extremely difficult if not impossible. Work is mainly found in big cities which then ramps up the cost of living as rents are often higher.

Other than that it is a good idea, try before you move that is.

[woolybanana]

Unemployment in France is very high indeed at the moment and rising so unless he has specially needed skills or is self-employed I would say that he has little chance of finding decent work.

Plus, I suspect that the famous 'Made in France' could also apply to hiring.

Self employment is a possibility by the administrative load and the tax overload would probablky make it a nono.

[NormanH]

Mr Foaf is working for a company that looks like it's about to go bust,

and rather than spend a miserable year looking for another job in the

UK, he'd prefer to try his luck here

The nub of the problem is that he is much more likely to find work in the UK than here.

The idea of downsizing to take advantage of cheaper property here only really works for people who don't need to make a living by working.

[Lou]

For employment, it depends, as has already been said, on his language skills, where they intend to base themselves and if he has any special skills or qualifications (IT, marketing, engineering etc).

I speak and write French fluently, worked for a French company here for 7 years til "la crise" and for the last 18 months have been "trying my luck" signing on with Pole Emploi; in short it isn't easy.

French employers seem to me to be very very rigid in what they are looking for - if you don't tick box A straight off then your CV's already in the bin, never mind if you would tick boxes B, C and D subsequently. The concept of "transferable skills" doesn't seem to have occurred to them (in my experience anyway)

It could be an equally (or even more) miserable year looking for a job in France, with the addition of not knowing anyone, (maybe) not speaking the language and/or not understanding the system/culture.

France is not likely to be the solution if what they're essentially looking to do is simply escape their lives in the UK.

[idun]

I'm sure that french regs say that after three months people wishing to reside in France have to be self sufficient with a minimum income of approx 900€ per month with two children, and they have to have health care in place.

The EHIC will only be valid for three months and then they would need private insurance for the family and that is expensive. No more S1's (old E106's) for early retirees from July this year.

How would they be able to rent anyway, it has been hard enough for my son who is working in France to get anyone to allow him to rent on his modest income. And the general rule is that rent/mortgage+ all loans should not exceed a third of income.

As has been said there is high unemployment in France too and do they speak really good french?

Is this yet again a case of the myth that one can just move anywhere in the EU and all will be taken care of ?  With young kids

I'd not risk it unless I was really well off. I'd have a job to go to first.

[Chancer]

Where does the 3 months EHIC validity come from?

Given their plans to maintain a theoretical UK residency I believe that the EHIC will remain valid and useable for its full 5 year validity.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Where does the 3 months EHIC validity come from?

Given their plans to maintain a theoretical UK residency I believe that the EHIC will remain valid and useable for its full 5 year validity.

[/quote]

I was wondering that, perhaps it is different if you have a French one or a UK one? I have come across Brits in France who are not tax resident in either country (or so they claim) and just use their EHIC for healthcare. Bit naughty and not to be incouraged as some law I believe is being broken somewhere as I understand it.

I was also wondering about this guy and his job. If he 'jumps' before the firm goes down won't he lose any redundancy? I was under the impression (possibly wrongly these days as things have changed) that if the company goes under and cannot pay redundancy then the government give you the basic redundancy etc. .... Actually I just Googled and found the following.

What you can get

The money comes from the government’s National Insurance Fund. It’s not guaranteed that you’ll get everything your employer owes you but you can claim for:

• redundancy

• up to 8 weeks’ wages, including a payment for a protective award for failing to consult collectively

• up to 6 weeks’ holiday pay

• statutory notice pay - 1 week after 1 month’s service, going up to 1 week per year of service (up to a maximum of 12 weeks)

• unpaid pension contributions (your pensions administrator does this for you)

• basic award for unfair dismissal

 

Source - https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-your-employer-is-insolvent/claiming-money-owed-to-you

Therefore I think he would be very stupid to 'jump' even if the job is shite and the company is going down the pan.

[nomoss]

Can one send kids to school here if not resident?

[EuroTrash]

You don't say what his trade is and you don't say whereabouts in France. But bearing in mind that unemployment in most of France is far higher than in most of the UK, and that it's far harder for newly arrived foreigners to get a job than French jobseekers, I think he's in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks he stands more of a chance finding work in France than he would in the UK.

Presumably Mr F. will get some kind of benefit if he is made redundant because his employer goes bust? And presumably there are rules about how long this benefit is exportable for? I had a notion that there is a maximum length of time you can stay in France as a jobseeker on UK benefits.

Sounds to me like he just wants to take time out, and is justifying it with the pretence of looking for work in France. I know plenty of Brits do live below the parapet in France and get away with it, personally I think it's cheating and I don't like it but there you go, we all have to live and let live. If that's what he wants to do, then as long as he has enough savings to tide them over until they get a job and go into the French system or decide to bail out, what's stopping them?

How it will work with the kids if they don't have a carte vitale, goodness knows, presumably they'll just have to pay for the medical certificates etc that the kids will need to be accepted into a French school. EHICs are all very well but you can't claim for routine vaccinations etc, and surely the NHS will smell a rat if you keep claiming month after month after month. Let's hope they're healthy kids.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="nomoss"]Can one send kids to school here if not resident?

[/quote]

That one at least I can answer myself, as my own daughter spent six months here last year with her two primary-school-age children. They were welcomed at the local school, made good friends, and were even given extra free lessons in French by a helpful teacher: that was after they were professionally assessed for their language needs up in Aurillac, our prefecture. The only bit of paperwork that surprised me was the need for them to have assurance scolaire, but at least that was cheap. So the answer is definitely yes - my daughter made it quite clear she was only staying for two terms. But I don't know if it would be different if Mrs Foaf said she planned to stay a full school year. The main problem with my daughter's visit was with the UK education authority, who weren't keen to guarantee that the children could go back to the same school after six months away (but they did).

I'm grateful for all the other replies: thank you all. I didn't give a lot of information and that has misled some posters. Mr Foaf's employer is already nearly a month late with Mr Foaf's June salary, and that employer also hasn't paid the rent on their offices which will be shut to them very shortly (the end of this week, unless the money turns up). It's a job where Mr Foaf can work at home (IT) and he can do some - though maybe not a lot of - job-hunting while in France, for a job in the UK. He certainly didn't/doesn't plan to quit, but the writing is definitely already on the wall.

I'm not sure that either of the Foafs would be seriously looking for work in France, but they would take any opportunities they found. I've heard (but I have no statistics) that there isn't that much unemployment in the Cantal, though that might well be because the local unemployed go elsewhere and add to someone else's statistics. I know getting a salaried job locally is difficult but there is work for the self-employed, and Mr Foaf might well be able to work at a distance. That's not really the point of the year away: I think Mr F (while job-hunting) would rather be unemployed in congenial surroundings than where he lives now. He's been looking for alternative work for a while now and nearly all of that process has been over the internet and by phone. I imagine he'd spend a fair amount of his time seriously learning to speak more than just basic French.

They wouldn't be renting in France - the dilapidated accomodation I mentioned is a near-ruin they actually own. It's worth next to nothing at the moment.

The problem is that I am a pensioner and by now I think I know pretty well exactly the problems that face someone in my own circumstances. I have much less idea about the problems that face a family of working age with small children. Again, all comments will be really helpful.

[idun]

Below is what I have read on the NHS web site and so would say that I would only say that a EHIC should be used for a maximum of 3 months and then as one is properly a french resident, then french rules should come into force. No one is being made to move to France after all[:-))]

That is how I see it. I believe it is different if someone say is working abroad for a UK company for a limited amount of time. 

I do know that people play with the systems, but with young kids I would never take the risk. Too many 'what ifs' as far as I am concerned. The amount of time I spent aux urgences with my youngest casse cou son... and the eldest had his moments too,...... as did their Dad..........so  I dread to think how much that would have cost if we hadn't been covered.

NB   I have added the new EHIC rules too.

The NHS is a residence-based healthcare system. Therefore, once you

have moved permanently away from the UK you are no longer entitled to

medical treatment under normal NHS rules.

However, if you're receiving a UK state pension or long-term

incapacity benefit, you may be entitled to healthcare paid for by the

UK. You will need to apply for form S1 (or an E121 if you are moving to

Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland), which you need to

present to the health authorities in your new country of residence. You

will then be treated on the same basis as a resident of that country.

To apply for your S1 or E121 contact the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) or The Pension Service.

You cannot apply online for your UK-issued European Health Insurance

Card (EHIC) if you live abroad. You must apply by post using form EHICE,

which should be sent to you automatically with your S1 or E121. If you

haven’t received an EHICE application, please contact the relevant

organization.

• If you have moved abroad and are, a UK state pensioner or in
  receipt of a UK benefit, contact The Pension Service on  00 44 191 218
  7777 
• If you have not received the EHICE application form, contact Overseas Health Care Team on 00 44 191 218 1999

New EHIC rules from July 1 2014

What has changed?

Each country’s healthcare system is slightly different. With your

EHIC, you should be able to get the same treatment as a resident of the

country you're visiting.

In some countries, you may have to pay a patient contribution, also

known as a co-payment. These payments are typically for such things as

GP or dentist consultations, prescriptions, or stays in hospital. See

our country-by-country guide for more details.

Since July 1 2014 you are no longer able to claim a reimbursement of these co-payments in the UK.

What does this mean for me?

If you visit another EEA country where that country requires its own

citizens to pay a patient contribution, you will also need to pay this.

You will no longer be able to claim reimbursement for this payment when

you return to the UK for treatment received after July 1 2014. 

You may still be able to claim reimbursements for any co-payments you made for treatment received abroad before July 1 2014.

 

Your EHIC will continue to allow you to receive medical treatment that

becomes necessary during your trip and you will be treated on the same

basis as a resident of the country that you are visiting.

Where can I get advice?

For further advice, contact the Overseas Healthcare Team (DWP):

Overseas Healthcare Team

Room MO601, Durham House

Washington

Tyne & Wear

NE38 7SF

Phone 0191 218 1999 (Monday to Friday 8am–5pm).

[HoneySuckleDreams]

From a kids point of view. They would qualify for family allowance in France (no2 child only), but they would have to clarify the situation with the UK. If they continue claiming it in the UK whilst living in France they might be in for a shock if they have to pay it back. I do know of one family who had to go back to the UK to face charges and had a hefty (000's) bill to pay it back, but they weren't up front about it. Check before they leave...or leap (into the deep dark chasm that is French life).

Kiddy insurance is a must, not expensive, but necessary.

As an IT bod I did a bit of travaille a distance when I moved to France, however, that was below the radar (I know...I don't feel good about it but there was a lot going on at the time).  Working (and earning) in France, even for companies based outside of France raises a whole barrel of fishy worms.

 

 

[EuroTrash]

I would have thought trying to claim CAF would scupper trying to stay below the radar with the fisc, and once they've 'clarified the situation' with the UK it will go on record that they've moved abroad and that may be their NHS EHIC entitlement gone for a burton as well.

No French company is going to employ a freelancer without a SIRET number these days. URSSAF has got far too keen, no French business would risk it, they are all too aware. Every company I work for has insisted on seeing attestations and all sorts before they will have anything to do with me. So it's not so much 'working EVEN for companies based outside of France' - they are the only ones you could work for, and it is still not legit.

If people choose to bend the rules they have to take their chances, simples. If their luck holds and it all goes smoothly they could have a great year, if stuff starts hitting the fan they have to be prepared to face up and wipe it off. It will be their own 5*?t after all.

[idun]

Sadly, I really do believe that there is a myth that 'we' can move where

we want as we want. That is to say, anywhere in the EU and be treat

instantly like we are in the UK, with no idea as to how things are or

work elsewhere.

Yes, we are free to move, but whilst, I am happy

to say,  every country still has its independence then we have to abide

by the rules of the country we chose to move to.

Araucaria, I am curious, how was your daughter covered for things medical during this six months in France?

My thought is that if the childrens father was working in the UK then they would be covered by his NI contributions, is that how it worked?

[PaulT]

Sound very precarious and a wonderful example for their children. They way to influence Anglo France relations.

Wonder what the children will say at school.

As for the UK school saying they might not accept the children who spent 6 months at school in France back seem very narrow minded. The children will take back stories of another culture - perhaps their French teacher might not be too happy, especially if they are British - 'that is not the way they say it in France'.

[EuroTrash]

+1 to idun's post.

[Quillan]

Reading through all this, some of which I knew and other bits I didn't I would like to use the old saying "If a jobs worth doing then do it properly". Basically it all looks possible even if some of it is slightly illegal and IF everything goes OK then there won't be a problem. The thing is life is not like that and if something does go wrong then it could cost the family a lot of grief let alone money.

 

A good point to start from is to read the following. "Freedom to move and live in Europe"

 

The next bit to read is the French law on EU nationals coming to live France (Can somebody provide a French link for this please as I can't find it but I know it exists). I found THIS but it is best to read the actual French documents.

 

The key word is "Inactives", people who do not draw UK state pension and are of working age. Basically without any documentation from the UK you can only stay in France for three months (under French Law) after which you must either work and pay into the system or get private healthcare insurance which is acceptable to the French State (more to the point CMU).

 

As to this couple or more to the point chap. If he has been in fulltime employment and can prove he has paid Class 1 National Insurance he will be entitled to up to two contiguous years healthcover in France and can apply for an S1 in the UK to give to the CMU (usually via a local CPAM office). If he has not got two contiguous years then whatever the period is he will get equivalent cover (say he has works 18 months till the date he leaves then he gets 18 months worth).

 

Of course once he hands in the S1 it will go back to the UK via the French system and he will become ‘resident’ in France and not the UK.

 

His next best thing to do is complete a French tax form. No he may not have an income so there will be nothing to put on it and he will pay not tax. If he is renting out their UK home then he needs to pay tax in the UK on the rental and he should get a P60 to prove he pays tax on the rental which is attached to the French tax form and in most cases he won’t be taxed in France on the rental under the dual tax agreement. I believe some members do this (or similar) and can give precise information on how it works and which forms to complete both in the UK and France. The point however is that more and more the proof of residency within France is based on filling in a French tax return. Any sort of ‘benefit’ or grant where a refund is issued (like installing a wood burner) is based on him completing a tax return.

 

If I were in his shoes I would wait until the company collapses. If he has not been paid I would go to the Job Centre or whatever they are called these days and explain the situation and ask them what he should do. At least this would be recorded and he may get money as per the link I gave in an earlier post. If he really wants to come to France then every penny he can get will help and if he has been working then he is entitled.

 

I think they will be in for a shock when they get here and see the prices of everyday living. People don’t think about this when they come on holiday for a couple of weeks but when you’re living here it is not cheap. I often compare the prices in my French supermarket to Tesco’s via their website and there is quite a difference. Electricity, once you have added in the taxes and delivery costs for a decent supply, is more expensive than the UK (using Moneysupermarket  against my bill) for example.

 

As the chap works in the IT field he can sit down and go through the Internet and find these things out for himself which I strongly recommend he does and then do it all again to make sure.

 

Personally I am not sure what he wants to do and how he is going about it is the right thing. OK if he is on his own but he has a family to think of and they (and their safety) should be paramount. So that’s my thoughts for what it is worth.

[EuroTrash]

"As to this couple or more to the point chap. If he has been in fulltime employment and can prove he has paid Class 1 National Insurance he will be entitled to up to two contiguous years healthcover in France and can apply for an S1 in the UK to give to the CMU (usually via a local CPAM office). If he has not got two contiguous years then whatever the period is he will get equivalent cover (say he has works 18 months till the date he leaves then he gets 18 months worth)."

No.

You are talking about the residual S1 for inactifs.

This has been withdrawn. As of 1st July (ie last Tuesday), no more residual S1s are being issued. The UK was never obliged to provide this cover (apparently no other EU country did it), and has now decided to stop doing so.

[Quillan]

I didn't know that so thats one avenue out the window. It is getting more and more difficult to come to France if you're not retired or don't work. They could always rent a room out as B&B and get in the system that way. [;-)]

[EuroTrash]

"They could always rent a room out as B&B and get in the system that way. Wink [;-)]"

"They would have some extremely dilapidated accomodation"

Hmm. Go to the mairie and register the dilapidated house opposite the school as tourist accommodation?

[Araucaria]

This has been very useful to me, and I hope our friends (or friend's friends) will find it useful too.

I was interested in practical issues rather than moral ones ("cheating"). I was particularly not interested in the income tax side: if the Foaf's were to get enough income from renting out a house to pay tax on it, I don't think they'd need answers to most of these questions. In the UK a couple can earn up to £20,000 - if it's split equally between them - without having to pay any tax, and I've seen on this forum the trouble you can get when you try to make the French tax office accept that you are liable to tax on UK income if you don't actually pay any. In the circumstances continuing to make UK tax returns and not making a French one for that year seems a no-brainer.

One of the things I'd be interested in would be actual experience - has anyone found themselves subject to any French state attention after staying in France as an inactive person for more than three months? Healthcare might of course trigger some enquiries, but I think the Foafs could manage for a year with their EHICs. There doesn't really seem to be any kind of official three-month limit, and how would it be enforced if the EHIC was valid? Quillan's helpful comments about S1 treatment might come in useful if they do decide to stay - Mr F has been employed in the UK for a long enough period to qualify.

I must admit that when I read Paul T I wasn't entirely sure whether he approved or not:

[quote user="PaulT"]Sound very precarious and a wonderful example for

their children. They way to influence Anglo France relations.

Wonder what the children will say at school.

As for the UK school saying they might not accept the children who spent

6 months at school in France back seem very narrow minded. The children

will take back stories of another culture - perhaps their French

teacher might not be too happy, especially if they are British - 'that

is not the way they say it in France'.[/quote]

but the way things went with my daughter last year was an entirely positive experience, I'd say for everyone (which is why I was asked these questions by the Foafs). Our grandchildren now have friends of their age in France, they speak a limited amount of French with an absolutely perfect accent, they got on well with nearly all the other children and their parents, and established a good relationship with the (two) teachers - it's a very small school. The teacher who drew the short straw for the extra language lessons was after all paid extra for it, and she had previously had Russian children in the class so it wasn't exactly a novel experience for her. The children really liked her and I'd guess she was happy with them. On the health side, by the time you're at primary school in the UK you've had most of your vaccinations, and the school was quite happy with the UK record of vaccinations. I can't recall now if they went to the doctor but they are normally healthy children and the EHICs seemed enough for a short stay.

The difference with our grandchildren is that their house in the UK wasn't let out and they and their mum had a perfectly good UK address all the time they were away. That would be a little more difficult for the Foafs, but they do have parents living in the UK so I expect something could be done.

Child benefit is something they might need to worry about, but I can't see that spending a year in France when the main wage-earner is involuntarily unemployed should mean that their children should stop receiving (UK) Child Benefit. But if it shouldn't be claimed in these circumstances, I wonder what would  be the date to stop claiming it? How long is a holiday? I can see that if you do decide to stay that would be the right time - but it would be daft to reject it in November and then go back to the UK in December and try to start claiming all over again.

Please keep the comments coming - and if I've not replied to a point anyone thinks is important, do come back and have a go at me. There have been a lot of comments and I may have missed something that really matters.

[Quillan]

With the EHIC round here my guests have found they have to pay up front then claim when they get back to the UK. Some have had 70% knocked off and have been left with the 30% to pay. It depends on who you see and how they personally collect the payment. Our local blood laboratory charges all the money but then 70% gets put in your account at the same time and you claim the 30% back via your mutual. The big clinic in Carcassonne works the same way with cataracts. I know this because I will have to pay this afternoon when Mrs Q goes for her 3 day checkup and its 426 Euros of which they say 128 Euros will have to be claimed back from our mutual and the balance should arrive in my bank account within 3 to 5 days. Meanwhile when I had my knee done I didn't pay a cent. Then there is Ald's if they have any, these are free in France.

On the other hand we had some American guest five years back where the wife was taken seriously ill (two blown stomach ulcers) and was in hospital (taken by ambulance because she collapsed) for four days and they never paid a cent, I never discovered how they got away with that.

In some ways I am starting to get a bit upset about this. Are not these people doing the same thing that people in the UK are accusing the Romanians of doing because whichever way you look at it they intend to cheat and defraud at least part of the French system.

[EuroTrash]

The info is all on the web easy for them to find - if they wanted to know. Eg child benefit

https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-abroad

You have to tell the Child Benefit Office if you go abroad for more than 8 weeks, it couldn't say it much clearer.

OK you're not interested in the moral issue but France makes a big thing out of 'droits et devoirs', rights and responsibilities. They teach kids that there are obligations on both sides; if citizens keep their side of the bargain and pay their dues, the state will keep its side and give them whatever benefits they're entitled to. If they don't play fair, the state has no obligation towards them.

It applies to a lot of EU rules too. The rules are not primarily there to be enforced, they are to protect people by setting out which country is responsible for what, in each given set of circumstances. If people choose to ignore the rules and then find themselves in a mess, they're on their own. The country concerned can point at the rules and say 'not our problem, the we have no obligation so don't expect any help from us. Your fault for breaking the rules'.

Will the NHS not smell a rat supposing one of the kiddies gets poorly and they put in claims month after month after month for medical attention in France for the child, during term time when it should be at school in the UK?

[Chancer]

I really dont think any laws are being broken in this theoretical scenario, its just people with an axe to grind who continously write that something is illegal and over many years people end up believing it as true fact.

If anyone can show me a law and not some wooly text then I will be happy to be proved wrong, a UK EHIC is valid for 5 years and during that time does what it says on the box, were cover to be denied because of length of stay then I suspect a law would be broken, probably a contract law but I am not a legal expert.

Many years ago I had a conversation with Newcastle re the EHIC, at one stage they said "you cant do that" which always provokes a questioning reaction with me, they had no answer, I repeatedly asked "why not ?"giving firmer and firmer questions like "what law or rule would be broken?" "what is to stop someone?" "what could/would you do about it" and the best that they could come out with was "the EHIC was never intended to be used in that manner"

I dont believe that someone using a valid EHIC in France is cheating one centime out of the French system, how can they be when the bill is paid by the UK just as France would pay (in theory if not in practice) for a French national recieving treatment in the UK. By believing that they are cheating and getting angry you are just buying in to the myth about the illegality of using an EHIC.