Snow Snow Snow

[idun]

Well the Rhone Alpes have had tons of snow fallen/falling today and many people have been blocked in their cars.

I often wonder why, when this happens in the UK and there is lots of snow and people are blocked, the news people always infer that 'abroad' they are used to the snow and this sort of thing wouldn't happen 'there'.

In fact most people I know in the UK lament the lack of coping with it, and yet I know of no one who had invested in snow tyres or chains in the UK in order to cope, IF the worst happens.

I'm just hoping that my son got to work OK to day and home again when he had finished, because having lived with weather like this in the Alpes, such every day things, rather than just going on holiday can be problematic. Although I must say, one our way to one ski holiday, the resort about an hour and a half from home took us 9 hours once.

[andyh4]

I have to agree with the sentiments Idun.

I wonder how many people in the UK have heard of winter tyres and the benefit of changing to them, let alone realise that they are not just for snow and ice and that they provide significant braking advantages below +7C.

Just a light sprinkling this side of the Rhone - which would probably be enough to bring London traffic to a total halt.

[NormanH]

Looked like the usual 'lemming' problem on the News tonight. Everone leaving on the same day.

There were some astonishing statements too. On chap said that they were 'surprised by the snow'  ...on the way to a skiiing holiday [:-))]  , and several seemed to have little idea of when to put on chains.

[Pickles]

The problem is quite simple.

1: in most of England, we really don't get much snow (at least in the last few years) - hence the number of times per year when you are going to be seriously inconvenienced by snow is VERY low. In areas of the UK where they get snow more frequently, the locals tend to use winter tyres.

2: if you have winter tyres, then most of the rest of the people on the road don't, and THEIR crashes and failure to get grip will mean that you end up in the same traffic jam as they are. The fact that you have grip and they don't doesn't help.

3: The lorries don't have winter tyres, and the authorities in the UK do not prevent them from going on the roads and motorways when snow is forecast (this tends to happen in France - I have seen the Gendarmes closing off one lane of an autoroute to park up lorries entering the departement). One jacknifed lorry and it is game over, thanks for playing.

I am an avid supporter of the use of snow tyres in winter, but the reality is that outside of Austria and Germany, where they are basically obligatory from November through to April, if you are on a major route and it snows heavily, the other vehicles are going to cause you to come to a halt.

The jams that have happened today on the routes to the Alps will contain some cars that have winter tyres and others that don't - and whose drivers think that their chains are just for use in-resort (if at all)

[idun]

In fairness, when to put the chains on is sometimes awkward.

One expects to put them on at certain points of a journey. We would imagine say, just getting past Bourg St Maurice and heading up towards say Tignes or Val d'Isere to put them on, if needed. Not before getting to the peage just outside Lyon, never mind not even getting as far as Chambery or Albertville.

And then there is putting the things on, with freezing hands and some of them so awkward. Due to big mileage we would change cars every couple of years and even if we took the same make style car, often the wheels/tyres whatever they are called were not the same size, so we'd need new chains. Trial runs putting them on in the warm confines of one's own garage is usually not the same, and sometimes even at home they are pigs of things to put on, in spite of it saying on the box that they are easy. In fact the cheapest and best we ever had were easy peasy in any conditions, never found any that were that good again.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Pickles"]

The problem is quite simple.

1: in most of England, we really don't get much snow (at least in the last few years) - hence the number of times per year when you are going to be seriously inconvenienced by snow is VERY low. In areas of the UK where they get snow more frequently, the locals tend to use winter tyres.

2: if you have winter tyres, then most of the rest of the people on the road don't, and THEIR crashes and failure to get grip will mean that you end up in the same traffic jam as they are. The fact that you have grip and they don't doesn't help.

3: The lorries don't have winter tyres, and the authorities in the UK do not prevent them from going on the roads and motorways when snow is forecast (this tends to happen in France - I have seen the Gendarmes closing off one lane of an autoroute to park up lorries entering the departement). One jacknifed lorry and it is game over, thanks for playing.

I am an avid supporter of the use of snow tyres in winter, but the reality is that outside of Austria and Germany, where they are basically obligatory from November through to April, if you are on a major route and it snows heavily, the other vehicles are going to cause you to come to a halt.

The jams that have happened today on the routes to the Alps will contain some cars that have winter tyres and others that don't - and whose drivers think that their chains are just for use in-resort (if at all)

[/quote]

Pickles,

your post typifies the problem. You equate winter tyres (sometimes you call them snow tyres) with snow. Read again my post. Winter tyres (not snow tyres - which might b confused with studded tyres for use on snow) give a significant benefit at 7C and below. Most of the UK spends much of winter at or below 7C. Ergo, winter tyres would be of benefit - cars, lorries and buses.

That is why Germany (where parts are as prone to snow as the UK) and Austria (where admittedly snow is prevalent across the whole country) have made it a requirement - punishable only if you create an accident or road blockage without them.

ADAC tests show that below 7C winter tyres give up to a 50% reduction in stopping distance - rain snow or ice.

Most of France it seems is in line with the UK, despite most of the country having significantly lower temperatures during winter.

[andyh4]

[quote user="NormanH"]

Looked like the usual 'lemming' problem on the News tonight. Everone leaving on the same day.

[/quote]

I think the "lemming problem" is called half term. If you have kids and want a winter break, there are few options apart from being a lemming.

The UK is no different.

I seem to remember a little dampness at Gatwick a couple of years ago at this time of year cause similar chaos.

Germany ditto a few years ago when a 90km traffic jam between Muenchen and Salzburg resulted in emergency helicopters ferrying in hot food, drinks and water.

If we want to avoid this then we have to insist that school holidays will be totally flexible - anarchy rules methinks.

[idun]

I have no problem with the people in the UK acting as they do when it snows. What I object to is the idiotic assumption that everyone else copes.

When it comes down heavily and steadily, who can.......... especially when there are a lot of people on the roads.

And the half terms, well in France, at least they are spilt into three zones, and in spite of that, when a lot of people want to go to the mountains,  the closer one gets, the more it funnels, a lot of snow and it grinds to a halt.

[NormanH]

Yes there are three zones, but everyone still seems to want to go on the same day of the week. This Saturday was of course the one when one zone was going home and the last one coming.

Today Sunday will be much calmer, so why not arrive today?

[Chancer]

A vehicle stopping on a dry road even at minus figures will not show a perceptable difference in braking distance on winter or summer tyres, if there is a difference it is likely that the winter tyres Under warmer conditions will have the longer braking distance.

People should drive according to the conditions, the poor drivers usually dont exceed their capabilities in dry conditions or even in rain but snow and ice sort the wheat from the chaff, I have been very frightened in the passenger seat with French drivers who always religeously  chnage to winter  tyres every October, its not that they drive fast, we have been overtaken on d roads by articulated lorries, they were dangerous at speeds where myself and most other drivers driving according to the conditions were safe on standard tyres, their control movement which are always jerky and abrupt became even more so due to their nervousness about driving in snow, they would drive in much too low a gear, make constant severe on and off the throttle (these people can never maintain a constant speed by gentle throttle modulation) actions where the engines torque is multiplied by the low gear, all of their control inputs become much more jerky than they already were, downchanging into first gear while braking for a roundabout, making snatched upchanges whilst making the turn on the roundabout, swinging violently from a bretelle onto a rocade and in doing so leaving the gritted clear tracks and crossing all the piled up snow left by the vehicles who took the more appropriate trajectory.

There is no doubt in my mind that winter or M&S tyres give significant advantages in snow and slush, on icy ungritted roads the advantage is  marginal.

[idun]

I've driven a lot in winter in the mountains. Sometimes the snow would beat us before we had  changed to our winter tyres, and where I used to live, as far as I am concerned it is better to have them than not, just better grip as far as I am concerned. And when it is 'bad' then the chains, help, one can still get stuck even with them, but they help.

I have never driven with stud tyres.

I always find that I move my seat further forward when driving in snow, always done it, no idea why I have, but it feels better.

[Théière]

[quote user="Chancer"]

A vehicle stopping on a dry road even at minus figures will not show a perceptable difference in braking distance on winter or summer tyres, if there is a difference it is likely that the winter tyres Under warmer conditions will have the longer braking distance.

There is no doubt in my mind that winter or M&S tyres give significant advantages in snow and slush, on icy ungritted roads the advantage is  marginal.

[/quote]

Well I would have disagree and so it seems do Continental, why does a softer compound for use in colder temperature not work?

I agree and so again do Continental about winter tyres used in summer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clSC7APitaQ

[Daft Doctor]

A further problem with traffic in the alps is the French obsession with Saturday changeovers, nothing else is offered except in rare cases. That means that on every one of the 5 Saturdays which span the 4 weeks of vacances scolaires, the roads heave. It is also true that this year in particular, the worst of the weather has been at weekends. Add those things together and it is murder on the roads. We had guests who left very early on Saturday morning only to be stopped by the police for 5 hours in a huge queue while the A40 beyond was being cleared. Once they got going it was clear all the way to Calais. Friends of theirs left 15 minutes earlier and got through without delay, it was really unlucky. As for winter tyres, they're essential in my opinion. As for chains, yes you need them, but I wish people wouldn't ruin the road surfaces by being too lazy to take them off even when the roads have been well 'deneiged'.