Getting a gate form Bretagne to Aude

[woolybanana]

I was being nice!

[alittlebitfrench]

Forum rule 1. Attack the debate not the individual.

Forum rule 2. When you can't do that then attack the individual.

Have I reached stage 2 on any thread ?

[woolybanana]

Your comments on expats refer to all of us as individuals and were extremely offensive and, I suspect, meant to be so.

[alittlebitfrench]

In the same way that everyone who voted Brexit are racists and xenophobic ?

Forgive me, you did say that on another thread !!! Right or wrong, you said it.

I don't refer to anyone by name. If I say expat or immigrant I include myself.

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] ............ @ Nomoss

A UK registered haulier can only pick up in France and deliver in France under very specific circumstances. It is called 'cabotage'. You will have to look it up .................. [/quote]

Many of the hauliers quoting via Loadup are based in, and presumably legal in France. I know, I have had quotes from them.

You seem to think you are "infallible". You will have to look it up[:D]

[alittlebitfrench]

'presumably'

Have you done 'France' to 'France' before on load up ?

Are you happy Lewis is on Pole ?

[woolybanana]

In terms of discursive skills and and tactics, picking out the other chaps comments is an attempt to deflect from the point in hand which is your discourse on this forum.

[alittlebitfrench]

Read the WHOLE THREAD AGAIN WOOLY. From start to finish.

I have only tried to help the OP on this thread. I have not attacked anyone, nor been rude. I have come up with solutions and offered advice.

What exactly have you contributed to on this thread ? All you have done is joined in on the personal attacks.

That does not bother me but what bothers me is you are doing exactly what you are telling others (who are not doing it) not to do.

Get a grip young man.

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] .............

Have you done 'France' to 'France' before on load up ? ........... [/quote]

No, but I've never before had a supplier in France come up with such a daft quote.

[andyh4]

Could we please let a bit of civility return to the thread please.

Just for once ALBF knows what he is talking about but - as is his habit - he has allowed snide remarks to wind people up and as a consequence his real message is being lost (And I have warned him about this before.)

He is quite right about cabotage rules and their consequences. Nomoss I would be cautious with offers you get and treat them like any sight unseen internet offer. Just because an offer comes from someone with a French address does not mean they are French registered, nor that their drivers are registered French drivers. As always do your homework.

Dave, why is it cheaper to ship from the UK to France than France to France? Well perversely it is exactly the opposite of your post, that the UK knows how to export goods around the world.

The UK imports much more than it exports. This means that many trucks return to the continent empty. As a consequence most hauliers delivering to the UK from the continent will charge the full return ferry/tunnel charge on the cost of the inbound delivery. That way they at least get their truck back to the mainland without excess costs. Many hauliers will also add in empty miles to their charge for the inbound delivery and in a worst case the UK recipient may be paying the full round trip costs for his delivery.

Consequently when the offer of goods from the UK to the continent comes up a very and unrealistic in true terms offer can be received.

Now add to that that a French haulier (just like a French plumber/builder/electrician) has to pay a small fortune in social charges for his employees and you end with a situation where his costs are significantly above those of a UK (or Polish/Bulgarian/Romanian) haulier.

Nomoss again - yes the offer you have received is very high and I am guessing that you too are being charged a full round trip price for the delivery vehicle and driver. This may be opportunistic, or may be because the haulier has no realistic chances of a return load due to a lack of contacts in the Aude area, or maybe because the company makes its own deliveries with its own resources - in which case the concept of return delivery will be unknown. This might be particularly true if they are used to supplying only a local market.

The 80kg weight was clearly wrong or a misunderstanding. The gates might weigh 80kg but not with the pallet(s) - well not unless the whole lot is made from Balsa or Deal. I would discount the roof rack idea.

[alittlebitfrench]

Thanks Andy 4.

So snide comments apart...

In terms of weight, the gates take up more 'chargeable' volume in the truck than they would do in 'chargeable' weight. 9 pallets (the same space as the gates) combined could weigh up to 9000 kgs. In this case the customer would be charged on weight. A couple of gates depending on their material will weigh lets say 200 kgs max so it is neither here nor there when it comes to a truck that can carry 38 Tonnes.

So weight is not important in terms of transport costs but the space they take in the trailer is. The only concern is how do you off load them.

A good affréteur will get this job done for 200 euros + their take.

Like I have said before, British expats take the easy option and fall back on the UK when it comes to trying to do things in France and think they are getting a good deal. Fair enough. There is a fully functioning economy in France that allows you to function as cheaply if not more cheaply as the Uk if you are bothered to find it.

I don't need the UK to function.

[nomoss]

I have just calculated the volume of the timber (pine) in the gate from the dimensions of each piece of wood. It comes to 0.06076 m3. It is only garden, not a castle, gate.

Using the top density I found for pine of 560 kg/m3 gives a weight of 34.02 kg for the large gate. I estimated 35 kg.

On that basis the little gate will be around 10 to 15 kg, total 45 to 50 kg. Add in the pallet and hardware and 80 kg total is not ridiculous, 200 kg is somewhat OTT.

If I were to carry them by car I'd put the big one on the roof and the small one inside - I wouldn't be including a pallet[:)]

All the carriers I have used for transport from UK to here have of course presented me with proper legal invoices including VAT or TVA as relevant, but I admit I have never asked or looked for proof that they were operating legally.

I can't remember any of our customers ever asking for proof that we were legal.

[dave21478]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Thanks Andy 4.

So snide comments apart...

In terms of weight, the gates take up more 'chargeable' volume in the truck than they would do in 'chargeable' weight. 9 pallets (the same space as the gates) combined could weigh up to 9000 kgs. In this case the customer would be charged on weight. A couple of gates depending on their material will weigh lets say 200 kgs max so it is neither here nor there when it comes to a truck that can carry 38 Tonnes.

So weight is not important in terms of transport costs but the space they take in the trailer is. The only concern is how do you off load them.

A good affréteur will get this job done for 200 euros + their take.

Like I have said before, British expats take the easy option and fall back on the UK when it comes to trying to do things in France and think they are getting a good deal. Fair enough. There is a fully functioning economy in France that allows you to function as cheaply if not more cheaply as the Uk if you are bothered to find it.

I don't need the UK to function.[/quote]

Christ alive - talk about over complicating matters.

Do you really believe this chaps garden gates take up the same space as NINE FULL PALLETS?

As for offloading them, I would suggest he uses his hands.

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] ................ British expats take the easy option and fall back on the UK when it comes to trying to do things in France and think they are getting a good deal .......[/quote]

That's rather a sweeping statement. How did you become such an authority on what other people think?

For myself, I don't really think of myself as a British expat. I was not born in the UK, left the UK in 1962, and lived almost as long in both Spain and France as in the UK.

I shipped machinery and other goods to Spain from the UK, Italy and the USA for almost 20 years but never came across such outrageous quotations as I have had in France, even allowing for the fact that I am now no longer a business customer.

Maybe Brit entrepreneurs just try harder?

[andyh4]

Actually Dave I think it is 10. The point is it is based on footprint. you should not ship them on top of other goods - except in exceptional circumstances, and definitely should not put anything on top for shipping.

Shipping them upright (which would be a very different story), is actually a much more problematic issue than you might think. Load security is a major issue with shipping goods and the police/authorities are "rightly" concerned about such issues.

I have put rightly in inverted commas because I have examples where the "rules" (again inverted commas) have ben applied to the inexplicable extreme.

The rules demand that the load must be fully stable in transit and must not move. Eminently sensible since we do not want goods falling off onto people or things.

But consider the situation where the BAG (Bundesamt fuer Guetesvehrkehr - German department for commercial transport) pull in a truck on an ad hoc inspection. It is carrying 22 pallets of sacks. Each pallet has a fixing strap so that the pallet cannot move. the inspector looks over the load and decides that in his opinion (note opinion and no facts presented) the load needs an additional 22 fixing straps and their metal clamps. But if these are fitted ( about another 200kg weight) the truck will be overweight to run on the German highways. Not his problem it seems but the truck isn't going anywhere without an extra 22 straps - despite our business shipping 250.000te annually with only 22 straps for years (since 1960 in fact but at reduced volume) without one single incident.

[dave21478]

Its not the Gates of Mordor he is buying. Its getting shipped on a pallet 3m by 1.2m. Thats not much larger than my kitchen table.

Without wishing to cause offence - and that statement usually guarantees it - this thread is full of "advice" from someone who is coming across as very knowledgeable shipping agent who is fully versed in what their computer tells them, but have never actually seen in the back of a lorry.

Lets have a think about the last few big deliveries I have received and tell me how they fit in with your volumetric load rules and all that jazz....

A pallet of netting...it was on a standard pallet which was on top of something else which had collapsed and was wedged at 45degrees against the side of the trailer. It got yanked out and unloaded on the tail lift.

6 large stone antique water troughs. Each one on a pallet, God knows what weight but I would guess several hundred Kgs each. They were piled one on top of the other and I had to get the tractor to unload them.

A large antique draftsman/architect desk. It was delivered stood upright strapped to the inside of the trailer.

A kit log cabin on several large pallets and straining the curtainsider to the point of bursting its seams.

I could go on literally all evening about the way sh!t gets transported. Yes, it is SUPPOSED to be all neat and secure like a game of Tetris, but the reality is very, very different.

Anyway, this thread is degenerating into farce now, so I wish Nomoss luck and Im out.

[andyh4]

Since you are out, I will not deign a detailed reply, but suffice to say, not a shipping agent and never have been, and if your loads had arrived at our factory or t one of our customers the haulier would have been out on his ear.

There are a pile of dangerous folk out there who pretend they know how to ship goods, you seem to have had more than your fair share.

PS - I am no beginning to understand why ALBF lets fly with this sort of crap.

PPS - and a small error in my previous post - not 250.000te per year - it should have ben 2.500.000 te per year (only packed goods we also sold in bulk and we only used agents for export (ex-Europe) shipments.

[PaulT]

How about having the gates sent as a kit of parts, i.e all machined just not screwed together. Easier to transport and should be a great deal cheaper.

[nomoss]

[quote user="PaulT"]How about having the gates sent as a kit of parts, i.e all machined just not screwed together. Easier to transport and should be a great deal cheaper.[/quote]

That's a good idea, I'll 'phone suppliers and ask them. I found one in Montmorillon, which is a lot closer.

I wonder if the gates need to be assembled in a jig to keep them square and also if the joints are glued as well as screwed.

[alittlebitfrench]

Dave Said...

'but have never actually seen in the back of a lorry'

If that comment if directed at me, then you are quite wrong. I worked for many years in warehouse/logistics operations and more so in Paris. That is why I am in France. Also like I said, I did have an HGV 1 licence many moons ago.

On a trailer a standard pallet is 0.5 loading metres and a euro pallet is 0.4 loading metres. However, if the pallets are 'stackable' (you can put one on top of the other) then the loading metres reduces to 0.25 (standard pallet) and 0.2 (europallet). That essentially means that you can in fact put 60 euro pallets on a trailer and 52 standard pallets if all the pallets are 'stackable'.

What dictates its stack-ability is weight, height and fragility.

If you are sending a pallet from the UK to France the price will be cheaper if it is stackable because it essentially takes up less space in the trailer. A lot of customers will declare their goods as 'stackable' when they are not.

Now, the fact that pallets (what you were talking about) have collapsed is down to the warehouse staff not loading properly or the customer has declared the goods as stackable when they are not.

You cannot declare 'gates' stackable otherwise some muppet in a warehouse may come along and stick a 1000 kg pallet onto of it.

In reality I guess what they will do is strap the gates on top of other pallets because their weight will not do any damage to the pallets underneath. Yes you are paying for floor space in the trailer but the haulier wants to maximise his profits.

Nomoss, I don't know why you don't put an ad on 'Fretbay'. It is the same as the UK bidding site but it is run in France. You won't have problems with cabotage or naughty Brits one man van types. It is free, so it will cost you nothing. You don't have to accept the bid. Or you just set the price to what you think the job is worth and see if someone bites.

[nomoss]

albf. Thanks for reminding me again of Fretbay. I've known of them for a while and have them bookmarked but never used them.

[Loiseau]

QUOTE nomoss

Using the top density I found for pine of 560 kg/m3 gives a weight of 34.02 kg for the large gate. I estimated 35 kg.

END QUOTE

Hang on, nomoss... Are you going to all this trouble for PINE gates? Surely that is not going to last any length of time, and you will be going through all this palaver again soon.

Angela

[mint]

[quote user="Loiseau"]QUOTE nomoss

Using the top density I found for pine of 560 kg/m3 gives a weight of 34.02 kg for the large gate. I estimated 35 kg.

END QUOTE

Hang on, nomoss... Are you going to all this trouble for PINE gates? Surely that is not going to last any length of time, and you will be going through all this palaver again soon.

Angela[/quote]

Nothing wrong with pine, Loiseau.................AS LONG AS he protects it well!

 

Old windows from the Victorian and Edwardian periods (in the UK) are in softwood after all.  Depends on if they have protective decoration that is renewed and the windows not allowed to be adversely affected by the weather

[cajal]

[quote user="nomoss"]

I

hunted the net and Leboncoin for a suitable gate. Not much available,

but eventually I found a place in Bretagne which can make wooden field

type gates to measure, which I thought would look nice if painted blue

to match the house woodwork.[/quote]

Do you mean like these two I made a couple of years ago?

The rails were in 5 metre lengths x5 = €80. The stiles were2 x4metre lengths = €24 which I was able to load on my Ford F150 with ease. The opening between the walls is 3 metres.

All the joints are mortice and tenoned, pegged and glued up with polyurethane glue. The 2 leading stiles are both rebated top to bottom to enable them both to interlock. The lock-down bolt, a spare from some volets, locates into a piece of copper pipe I hammered into the ground. I also fitted 4 new gonds into the wall for the hinges.

Each gate took me 4/5 days to complete and hang, although there was a 6 months delay between finishing the righthand and starting the lefthand. A small matter of a triple pontage cardiac interupted the work schedule.

Go on, try it yourself.

Edit: Photo previewed but did no post. Sorry.

regards

cajal

[nomoss]

The shutters on this house date from the 1970’s are

pine, painted blue, and are still in very good condition despite having exposed

end grain top and bottom.

 

The gates I am looking at are “pin traité autoclave” which I’m sure would be at least as good as the timber used in our

shutters. The gates will be painted to match the house woodwork, as I mentioned

in my OP, and we will be quite happy if they last even a bit less than 45 years.

 

Loiseau, thanks for the link.

 

I will ask one or two of the

menuisiers near her, but there is no a tradition of wooden gates in these

parts, – no good timber and no livestock, so I would be asking them to do

something out of the ordinary, and am a bit nervous about the result. I’ll also be

surprised if one can supply a pair of made to measure gates at a price to

compete with volume produced ones, so the carriage cost would be the decider.

 

If  the roof bars I have will fit onto the Audi I could collect

a suitable pair of gates from Montmorillon, when the weather is a bit nicer,

for about 150€, look

at the gates before I buy them, and also stay overnight and have a look at the area.