The Blame Game

[cajal]

There are certain people resident on this forum who frequently point their finger and generally blame Mrs May as the previous Conservative Home Secretary and now Prime Minister for all the random UK terrorist atrocities.

Will they now be re-aligning their index fingers towards Socialist Interior Minister Gérard Collomb and Prime Minister Édouard Philippe for this latest random attack in Paris, France, their country of residence?

[NormanH]

I condemn  Mrs May for a number of things, but I don't think I have ever blamed her "for all the random UK terrorist attrocities." (or even atrocities)

On the other hand she was certainly Home Secretary and responsible for cuts to the Police  Service

https://videos.files.wordpress.com/ZxHuFljq/kirkham_dvd.mp4

and many other disastrous decisions

http://www.rogercee.com/theresa-may-article-significance/

Neither of the French politicians you mention have had an equivalent role to play in the nation's security.

I condemn all murderous acts (in which I include the sort of bombing of civilians that is dismissed as 'collateral damage')  but I do think that a politician whose job it has been to deal with security for the last 6  years is more blameworthy than those fresh to the job when things go wrong.

[cajal]

So that will be a No from NormanH.

...(or even atrocities) Spelling duly edited.

[andyh4]

Please add me to the "no" camp, but I guess no surprise there either.

[Patf]

Instead of "blame" we should say "explain" . No need to personalise it, most people should know who or what you mean.

Even so, remember the extra security and police forces that were added in France after the Nice attack last year. That was on July 14th (Bastille Day?)

The Country and Western Festival in our tiny market town was a week later, also the Marciac Jazz festival, the first few weeks of August, and there were major changes in both to vehicle entry routes, as well as during the concerts, for security reasons.

Yet in London, a few days after the Manchester massacre, as far as I know, there was no extra security at Borough Market, or London Bridge on Sat. night. Both very popular with tourists and visitors.

[ericd]

There are certain people resident on this forum who frequently point their finger and generally blame Mrs May as the previous Conservative Home Secretary and now Prime Minister for all the random UK terrorist atrocities.

...... You obviously know who those people are so why are you asking members to declare if yes or no they are those same mentioned posters...?

Why don't you start your post as " X, Y Z and so and so ... frequently point their finger etc.etc. a much clearer request imo.

[idun]

I play the blame game with politicians about lots of things...... Mrs

Thatcher, Tony Blair......in fact the latter is probably someone we

should be blaming for the current events. The seeds were planted 'then'

and they did 'take' and flourish.

Mrs May, well, never thought

much of her as a Home Secretary, there again, haven't thought much of

ministers since I have been back, there have been some evil wicked ones,

which have nothing to do with this at all.

I suppose the biggest

discussion we need to have is about our 'rights' and I would prefer

that the human rights act was not even brought into the equation as my

feeling is that the criminal in general has more rights and justice is

no longer being served. Victims seem to have lost their rights.

I

have no idea how this will be addressed, as there is another problem,

as we seem to have had war declared on us....... by people who HATE us

and our societies.

I was going to say more, but it is not PC and

I am VERY VERY upset by all this......... and angered by the father of

the Manchester bomber saying that he could not have done it.

[cajal]

[quote user="ericd"] You obviously know who those people are so why are you asking members to declare if yes or no they are those same mentioned posters...?

Why don't you start your post as " X, Y Z and so and so ... frequently point their finger etc.etc. a much clearer request imo.[/quote]

Just to clear up any possible misunderstandings in that I have no overall interest in who pointed a finger at whom. What I was seeking to ellicit from the said people "X,Y & Z is what drives them to make incredulous gestures by casting aspersions on the politicians and security services in the wake of the terror attacks in the UK.

March 22nd 2017   Westminster - London

May    22nd 2017    Manchester

June     2nd 2017    London Bridge

However following the aftermath of the equally insiduous terror attacks here in France,

June  7th 2015  Charlie Hebdo

Nov  13th 2015  Paris

July  14th 2016  Nice

July  26th 2016  Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray (Church)

Feb    3rd 2017  Louvre

April  20th 2017 Paris (Champs Elysees)

June   6th 2017 Paris (Notre Dame),

which equates to an130% increase in French attacks over and above the UK attacks for the same period of time, I was never aware of any criticism, cynical gesturing or scathing remarks towards the politicians or security services of France, the home/residence of X,Y& Z .

Spellcheck anyone?

[lindal1000]

I think for me the issue is that Theresa May herself made it a campaign issue the day after. Having decided to stop campaigning as a mark of respect she then immediately got in there with 'enough is enough' and 'we are too tolerant to extremism'. 'Enough is enough' was in fact the phrase used by protesting policemen the year before, when she was home secretary and cut their numbers. That must be where she got it from.

France has responded very differently. As far as I know police numbers weren't cut, and in fact a State of emergency was declared and is still in force, giving French police powers that would probably worry even the Daily Mail. Voluntary conscription is still encouraged, with the conscripts being used to assist with routine work, allowing the police more time to concentrate on protection. It did not seem to be a big issue in the French elections by any part other than the FN, who didn't really offer any other solutions.

You are correct though, as it hasn't meant that there have been fewer attacks, so maybe the harder line taken by France is no more effective.

[woolybanana]

French police numbers were cut but have now started to grow again.

[Patf]

To Cajal:

Yes but - France has almost double the number of potential terrorists than the UK.

UK Muslim population 4.8%

France  - ditto               7.5%

[lindal1000]

Patf..potential terrorists are not just from Muslim backgrounds. I think I have written before of our friends son, a Canadian, who had never been in a Mosque until he was in his late teens. He was radicalised by various means, without her being aware, and then he went to Syria where he was killed. She has formed a group of mothers in similar positions to look at trying to understand how radicalisation occurs and what can be done to prevent it. Her situation is far from unique. People susceptible to succumbing to radicalisation can come from all walks of life and all backgrounds.

[NormanH]

What I was seeking to ellicit from the said people "X,Y & Z is what

drives them to make incredulous gestures by casting aspersions on the

politicians and security services in the wake of the terror attacks in

the UK.

1) Can you provide any links or quotations for any of us casting aspersions on the UK security services?

2) Any comments about Mrs May come from the fact that it was her job as Home secretary in the Cameron government to deal with these issues, and she clearly ignored advice from those on the ground.

UK Border Force. As the public discovered after a people-smugglers’

vessel ran aground in May, it has has only three cutters protecting

7,700 miles of coastline. Italy by contrast has 600 boats patrolling its

4722 miles.

she has also allowed the UK’s small airfields to go unpatrolled –

despite the vastly increased terrorist threat of the last few years, the

onset of the migration crisis, and the emergence of smuggling networks

that traffic people, drugs and arms.

Then there is the failure to establish exit checks at all the

country’s airports and ports. These were supposed to be in place by

March 2015.

Recent years have seen a cavalcade of Home Office decisions

about visas and deportations that suggest a department with a bizarre

sense of the national interest.

The most infamous was the refusal of visas to Afghan interpreters

who served with the British forces in Afghanistan – as Lord Guthrie

said, a national shame.

Mrs May has kept so quiet about this and other scandals – such as

the collapse of the eBorders IT system, at cost of almost a billion

pounds – that you might imagine someone else was in charge the Home

Office.

Recent years have seen a cavalcade of Home Office decisions

about visas and deportations that suggest a department with a bizarre

sense of the national interest.

The most infamous was the refusal of visas to Afghan interpreters

who served with the British forces in Afghanistan – as Lord Guthrie

said, a national shame.

Mrs May has kept so quiet about this and other scandals – such as

the collapse of the eBorders IT system, at cost of almost a billion

pounds – that you might imagine someone else was in charge the Home

Office.

In general Mrs May has avoided taking on the most serious

institutional problems that afflict British policing. These include a

disturbing willingness by some forces to let public relations concerns

determine policing priorities, widespread overreliance on CCTV, the

widespread propensity to massage crime numbers, the extreme risk

aversion manifested during the London riots, and the preference for

diverting police resources to patrol social media rather than the

country’s streets.

As I pointed out above neither of the two French politicians you mentioned have had any such responsibility, so cannot be  criticised in the same way.

Finally would you explain what you mean by "an incredulous gesture" and quote one from our posts?

[woolybanana]

As opposed to Jeremy Corbyn who would withdraw border surveillance completely and welcome every one of the little ruggers with open arms, a list of benefits they can have, a cheque for £1000 quid and, if they like, a bomb makers manuel.

Norman, you vehement, hate filled rant against TM and others do you no credit, unless you admit that Corbyn is a terrorist supporting apologist who is lying to the British people as to his intentions.

[mint]

Oh, Wools, what on earth have you been reading and where do you get your FAKE NEWS?  Do you really, really believe that poor old Corbyn is going to give would-be terrorists one grand and instructions on how to make bombs?

If you aren't merely posturing, Wools, I do suggest that you make an appt with a shrink tout de suite because I seriously think you need help.

Angela, if you are there with him, please calm him down and put him to bed until he feels better in the morning, will you?[:)]

[woolybanana]

Just pulling his curly little tail, Nimt, just tweaking.

But, Mr Cobryn has voted against almost all of the terrorist measures which the government put through, which might suggest he is not likely to protect the British public as a priority.

[mint]

I don't believe for one moment that Corbyn or indeed May for that matter would not make the protection of the British public a priority.

There might be disagreement as to what is the best way to counter the terrorist threat in our midst but I don't believe that there is a single person (apart from the scumbags who commit the massacres) who would not want the very best protection possible.

Since Manchester and London, we are all victims and even that sub species of humans called politicians are not going to wilfully endanger our safety.

[Patf]

Mint wrote:

"Since Manchester and London, we are all victims and even that sub

species of humans called politicians are not going to wilfully endanger

our safety."

Especially as they had a similar experience with the Westminster Bridge attack back in March, when they were trying to hide in their offices.

[idun]

Yes, good at hiding after Jo Cox was stabbed........ ours (old one, maybe the next one) is behind locked doors and no open surgery either...... apparently 'I' don't understand what a dangerous world we live in.

[cajal]

[quote user="mint"]

Since Manchester and London, we are all victims and even that sub species of humans called politicians are not going to wilfully endanger our safety.

[/quote]

Hmm. Do I feel a victim? No. Do I feel a target? Yes.  However I feel mine and my nearest and dearests' safety has been threatened enough, but not by the events of London and Manchester, but by the events of Paris, Nice and Normandy as I am a French resident.

As you will be fully expecting May/Corbyn and the politicians to protect yours and the British publics safety I also will be expecting Macron and his soon to be politicians to get a grip of the dire security situation and make the streets of France safe again.

Remember, the murderers only have to roll a double six once.