Shocking lacunae in French law

[woolybanana]

A maths (why is it always maths or chemistry?) teacher was yesterday given just a suspended sentence for sleeping with a 14 year old pupil. He said that she had consented.

Bad enough, but it seems that France has no minimum age of sexual consent, the courts deciding on a case by case basis.

Of course Macron has promised to fix it immediately, but it is very surprising that there is no law in place already.

Will it be seen as some sort of cultural discrimination though as some cultures/religions allow young girls to be 'married off' at 14 or even earlier.

Now, if anyone really wants to be shaken, look at the law, or lack or it, on incest.

[Chancer]

Well he was found guilty, I am assuming that his statement that it was consensual was consistent with the pupils, it was not rape.

 

There is a minimum age in French law below which someone is not considered adult enough to give consent, you may argue that it isn't high enough.

 

I dont think that children are getting any more savvy, streetwise or better equipped to make the very important decision, what is undeniable is that girls are reaching sexual maturity  younger and younger (is it the same for boys?) my last romantic interest was a devout Muslim lady and when here daughter showed signs or precocious puberty she took her straight to the médecin to have injections to delay it for several years, she was petrified that pressure would be put on both her daughter and herself from her own community and extended family in Maroc [:(]

 

Her daughter was a lovely girl, very bright outgoing and certainly not immature mentally, the injections and the side effects were very unpleasant for her which caused her mother no end of pain, she hinted at what had gone on in her childhood and that she wanted her children to have the oppurtunities that she hadn't and probably in time would have opened up, I never pushed her to.

 

It was definitely a dark cloud over an otherwise lovely family, even at 14 the son was ruling the roost though.

[woolybanana]

This may be of interest:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/11/22/france-sex-consent-age-minimum/886388001/

[idun]

GRRRRRR do not get me started about the way french law lets women and children down.

Women victims of domestic abuse ( I realise that men can also be victims of domestic abuse too ) and as you point out Wooly, children too.

I was told by someone high up and legal at the courts that french law was french law and perfectly good enough for french citizens, I should leave my mamby pamby anglo saxon views at the border. I cried, unashamedly in front of this person, and said that some french laws lacked decency and humanity.

There have been a few very minor improvements over the years, but little, as this illustrates.

[EuroTrash]

I'm not disagreeing but kids do mature at different ages, some are young for their age some grow up fast, so how do you choose an age that's right for all. It's not as if they suddenly change on their 16th birthday so making it illegal to have sex with a girl aged 15 years 364 days and legal the day after is not the perfect solution either.

[mint]

I heard this story on French TV a couple of days ago.  Apparently, there is no common age of consent in EU countries.

There then appeared on the screen a list of countries and their different ages.  For example, in Spain, the age is 12.  I must admit this shocked me a bit, Spain being seemingly a more religious country than France and I thought Catholics would frown more heavily on this sort of licence but there, I am wrong yet again.

Whatever it's about, it's not about commonsense, is it?

[AnOther]

12 in Spain, fake news !

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/spain

[Patf]

I read a report in la Depeche on this subject over a week ago -  it doesn't make sense to me. I wrote this on another forum:

"Evidently there have been 2 recent cases of men who had sex with an 11

year old girl being freed because "she appeared to consent", and no

violence etc was used by the men involved.

The report says "Mais le notion de 'consent' de l'enfant n'existe pas" .

So it sounds as if this kind of case is treated in France similarly to that of adult rape in the UK.

Womens

groups are pushing for a full debate in govt. and new legislation to

make 15 age of consent. Some opposition from those who say yes but what

about adolescent love affairs? Romeo et Juliet etc."

I think France was one of the latest countries to criminalise within-family 'under-age' sexual relations.

[Hoddy]

Eurotrash wrote; "making it illegal to have sex with a girl aged 15 years 364 days and legal the day after is not the perfect solution either. "

While this may be true it is a much better solution than allowing a 28 year old man to have sex with an eleven year old so carelessly that she becomes pregnant. Sadly, girls do need protecting fro predatory males because the consequences for them can be so much worse for them. We make judgements about what age is appropriate in many other situations why not sex ?

The law in the UK says 16 but it is extremely rare for it to be applied to a pair of adolescent lovers.

[andyh4]

ANO wrote

12 in Spain, fake news !

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/spain

The problem is that this site says that the age of consent for France is 15 and I thought the whole thrust of the discussion was that there is no current age of consent.

I am now thoroughly confused.

[mint]

[quote user="AnOther"]12 in Spain, fake news !

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/spain[/quote]

Thank goodness!  Thanks for posting.  I was horrified.  Just goes to show, some French TV shows don't do proper research[:-))]

As millions of French people would have watched the prime time news programme, I hope that they'd check the facts before they engage in sexual activities with any Spanish minors![:-))][:-))]

[woolybanana]

Ernie, it was not false news. It can only be false news if there is intent which is not the case here, rathe laziness or mistake.

Why do you sound like the Inquisition these days or perhaps Mr Pooter?

[AnOther]

[quote user="andyh4"]The problem is that this site says that the age of consent for France is 15 and I thought the whole thrust of the discussion was that there is no current age of consent.

I am now thoroughly confused.[/quote]

There legal age is 15 as enshrined in Article 227-25 of the Penal Code but for some misguided and perverse reason the judge in the case in question chose to ignore it.

Actually Wooly I said fake not false but pray tell when did that come to imply intent ?

If you'd said that of fake I might have agreed however in context the actual wordage was not really the point was it ?

Sounding like the Inquisition ????????????????????????

[NormanH]

This is yet another example of  the confusion caused by applying aan Engllsh term to a French situation, in this case 'age of consent'.

In the UK the 'age of consent' is 16.

In France the age at which someone may consent to sex is 15, but in practice another idea takes precedence, the idea of Majority (which is 18)  and the family can go to the police if they  wish to complain about a situation, so in fact most people would regard the 'age of consent ' as 18. The 15 year old limit tends to be applied to sexual activity between teenagers in the 15-18 band.

What doesn't exist is the idea of 'statutory rape': i.e the idea  that below a certain age sex is considered to be non-consensual  even if the person said yes.

The new proposition is to make this age at 15 (or 13, I have seen both figures)

This  is not the same thing as 'age of consent'.

[Hoddy]

Thank you so much for that explanation Norman.

It does seem an odd situation for parents though where a parent may intervene if they know their 15 year old is active sexually, but can do nothing if some predator has taken advantage of a much younger child, perhaps even younger than 11.

[Patf]

The legal situation still seems very strange and vague to me.

Maybe it's something to do with the different attitudes to sexuality between the french and we anglo-saxons. Especially in rural areas, where most people work with animals?

[woolybanana]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="andyh4"]The problem is that this site says that the age of consent for France is 15 and I thought the whole thrust of the discussion was that there is no current age of consent.

I am now thoroughly confused.[/quote]

There legal age is 15 as enshrined in Article 227-25 of the Penal Code but for some misguided and perverse reason the judge in the case in question chose to ignore it.

Actually Wooly I said fake not false but pray tell when did that come to imply intent ?

If you'd said that of fake I might have agreed however in context the actual wordage was not really the point was it ?

Sounding like the Inquisition ????????????????????????

[/quote]

fake = false. both imply an intention to deceive - ie an act, the actus reus and the intention, the mens rea, otherwise it is mistake which might be through ignorance or carelessness or whatever.

Inquisition refers to your very direct style of writing, very black and white, right or wrong. Nothing wrong with it but it feels different from most here. IMNVHO