translation and advice re " compromis"

[cassie]

I have a 5 page "compromis" from the immobilier , with her "purported" translation----parts of which I know to be mis-leading..

..... I wish to have it properly translated...by a professionl...together with advice if   a) does what it contains seem O.K and   b) is there anything else that should be in there (especially under " clauses suspensives ")  to give me protection in the event of any nasty surprises being found by the notaire

What qualifications do you have and what do you charge?  ...in sterling please

 

thanks Dennis

[Cat]

If anyone is able to offer their services to Dennis, please contact him by PM or forum email.

[Will]

I don't know why you seem to be so mistrusting of the agent. Remember that in France, the agent works for you - you are paying the fee - so there is no reason to misrepresent anything. If the agent really is 'dodgy', or you do not trust her, then the best advice is to pull out of the deal because the seller, the notaire and everybody else could have something to hide.

There are plenty of houses for sale with honest agencies.

 

[cassie]

Thanks, Will

the seller is paying the immobillier, not us.

The immo is not to be trusted, for a lot of reasons,  but we REALLY want the property and we think it is a good price...it has 95% of what we are after , i.e. way more than any other property we have ever seen....but we have not signed the comp. yet and are getting cold feet

We want to get out of the U.K.

thanks again

dennis

 

[Will]

That's unusual then, though I believe in a few areas of France the agent is normally paid by the seller. Although of course it is always a moot point, because the buyer ultimately pays.

It's a pity you don't trust this person because the vast majority of agents and their employes in France are totally straight, though some self-employed sales negotiators can get a bit anxious if they really need a commission.

I think you need a legally-qualified professional who specialises in the French housing market, and can advise you on exactly what the clauses mean, and what the implications are for you, as well as just providing a translation. You will find such people advertising in the French magazines which back this forum. It will cost, but it sounds as if it's going to be money well spent if you really want this particular house.

[Iceni]

dennis

In case you don't already know, Will sleeps with an estate agent - but he might be truthful as well. [:D]

John

[lmc]

dennis,

why don't you suggest that the notaire draws up the compromis?  he is an impartial professional and more and more agencies are using this option now as it is more reassuring for purchasers.

failing that, agencies generally use a standard pre-printed compromis form.  is yours not one of these?

lisa

[Tony F Dordogne]

Dennis, it would really help to know where the property is that you're trying to buy, in that way people may be able to work out if they/somebody they know, would be able to help you.

[Anton Redman]

At the risk of sounding cynical it does not matter who writes out the cheque to the Immobelier. They only receive their money when a sale is made. Therefore their interest are served by making a sale.

[PaulT]

Will

Your ascertion that the agent works for you is technically correct - in Dennis's case the seller may have said to the agent that they will pay the fee but that will be reflected in the asking price, after all, some of the 'agents' in the Uk quote an all inclusive price.

However, the agent wants to see the sale through and get their commission. It is against their interests to say 'I do not think this property would suit you'.

When we bought the agent stated things that were not correct, such as the deposit had to be with the notaire before we could sign the compris.

I know your connections Will and Judie is obviously someone who has scruples but does every agent.

Dennis as Will says there are many solicitors that advertise in the various publications that will provide you with a service that is totally focussed on your needs. As the house is one that you very much want to buy do go down this route for your peace of mind and also to ensure that you are not 'stitched up'.

Paul

[PaulT]

[quote user="dennis"]

I have a 5 page "compromis" from the immobilier , with her "purported" translation----parts of which I know to be mis-leading..

..... I wish to have it properly translated...by a professionl...together with advice if   a) does what it contains seem O.K and   b) is there anything else that should be in there (especially under " clauses suspensives ")  to give me protection in the event of any nasty surprises being found by the notaire

What qualifications do you have and what do you charge?  ...in sterling please

 

thanks Dennis

[/quote]

As a little sort of PS - 5 page compris. The one we received from the Notaire ran to a lot more than 5 pages.

If you have it electronically run it through the various translation toos, such as Google and Babelfish to see what that gives you.

Paul

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I remember some years ago my late father complaining that the tone of his golf club had fallen. When I asked him what he meant, he replied that it was 'full of estate agents and men wearing suede shoes' ! He added a third category which I will not repeat here, and I was so aghast at this pronoucement that I never really found out the connection between ones occupation and ones footwear.

There seems to be a similar reaction on this forum and elsewhere whenever estate agents are mentioned. Do we see the same reaction when the shoe salesman obliges you to buy a pair of shoes, the insurance man a life policy or the car salesman a vehicle? Are property buyers frogmarched into the estate agent's office and forced at gunpoint to sign a compromis de vente?

Of course estate agents etc want to make a sale but that does not oblige you to buy. As I have said on numersou occasions, the French property buying business is one of the most highly regulated and (consumer) protected in Europe, with numerou safeguards built into the system. The whole point about the compromis de vente is that it is a pre-contract, in a way a foretaste of what you are committing yourself to. By all means have a translation into English, but far better to get an explanation of what you are about to sign. English legalese is just as baffling when read by the layman. Seek advice from your estate agent, a notaire, a qualified expert, whatever. But it is not helpful to assume that everyone is out to cheat and rob you.

If you would like the address of my father's golf club, please contact me.

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC MA LLM www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

 

[Will]

Very true, and nicely put P-D.

Just for the record. Mrs Will frequently advises people not to buy a particular house if she feels it won't suit them, but then she is a salaried employee of an agency rather than a commission-only agent commercial.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it was done at gunpoint, but we have heard of people being pressurised into signing a compromis immediately after a viewing. We have also heard of notaires that gloss over the negative points and misinform/pressurise buyers (when they are acting as selling agents, or are working rather too closely with certain agents) - but of course, as they are notaires that can't possibly be true, can it? So the advice that if you are not sure about something, whatever the source, get confirmation from a qualified professional looks ever more attractive.

I have no wish to join any golf club, let alone P-D's father's, but as I often wear suede shoes they wouldn't have me anyway. The famous Groucho Marx quote comes to mind.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I really do hate labouring the point but I cannot not reply to Will's comments following my post.

1. I do not think it is fair to make a comparison between employed staff of an agency (= the good guys) and an agent commercial working on commission (= must be bad). Everyone is under a certain amount of pressure to sell, as I found during two years as an employee in an agency (which is why I became an independent advisor, being more comfortable in that role). .

2. Why do you assume people are pressured into signing a compromis after a viewing? Saying 'Yes, I am interested' is of no use to anyone if you really wish to buy. Signing a compromis de vente secures the property (in the buyer's interest) and gives him/her the chance to go through the document in detail with the agency representative, line by line if necessary. Better that than sending a 30-page document in French a week later, indicating simply where to sign. (This will happen of course but you will understand what you are signing/have signed).

3. Whether signed in the agent's office or later when sent to your home address, the buyer has ample time for reflexion - the delay between the initial visit and receiving the document by registered post at home, the statutory seven day cooling-off period - and longer if seeking a bank loan or mortgage.

4. I have not heard of details being 'glossed over' by either agents or notaires. Misunderstandings, when they do arise, are often due to lack of understanding French (so use an interpreter - you are committing a lot of money) and/or the property buying system, in spite of the pages of advice given on this forum and elsewhere. But I have found buyers are requently relucant to take/pay for advice and the next thing we see is a long, sad (I mean it) story appearing on Living France.

5. In the region where I work, two of the principle agencies have been in business for over 50 years, both of them until recently run by their original founders, now in their 80s. My local firm of notaires is now run by the grand-children of the original founders and comprises 5 partners and a dozen support staff, several of them speaking excellent English.  Of course agents work closely with notaires, it helps get things done (searches, technical reports, planning guidance etc) - and yes, they are well known at the Mairie too. These are people who have known and trusted each other since schooldays, and I feel mildly privileged to be accepted among them after only seven years in the region.  Why do you read anything sinister into all that? Local reputations take years to build, only a moment to lose.

6. No-one has any problem with buyers, sellers or anyone else seeking additional information or advice from another source, if that's what they want to do and are prepared to live with the consequences if it all goes disastrously wrong as a result. Personally I'd rather recommend people I know and trust and have been through many transactions with, for former buyers, now friends, some of whom now live 100 yards from my apartment and I see nearly every day! I can already hear the doubters saying 'Ah yes, of course they'll give you a reference, they're your f r i e n d s!'

There are some situations in which you just can't win.  

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC MA LLM www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

[Will]

PD, please don't be so sensitive, or suspicious of my motives. If you re-read what I said, you will see in the first line that I was agreeing with you.

I made the point about Judie and her clients purely to demonstrate that, contrary to impressions often aired here, not all agency employees have a strong financial interest in making a sale - there is of course the matter of pride in the job that goes with a successful transaction, and often a small bonus to be earned, but in this case a successful sale means one that the buyer, seller and everybody else are happy with. It doesn't mean that all commission-only salespeople are rogues - far from it; the vast majority are fine people.

When we did B&B, mainly for agency clients, they did not only view houses through Judie's agency, most had appointments with others in the area while they stayed with us. Many bought elsewhere and were perfectly happy but we did hear the occasional horror story about sales tactics, including some who were put under considerable pressure to sign there and then for houses they were not really happy with, and only after the event did they realise that they had signed a legal document; and others who were charged a vastly inflated fee for being referred through a British-based agency. The former was, if I recall, before the 'retraction period' was introduced. Such occurrences are rare, but they do occasionally happen, though now there is a lot more opportunity for buyers to withdraw. No decent agency or notaire's cabinet would operate in this way of course.

Similarly with notaires - there is an assumption that because a notaire is involved then it must all be 100% straight. Again, in the vast majority of cases, that's true. But there has been the odd instance of some notaires being less able, less straight-dealing, even less well disposed towards English buyers, than others - often this is where the relationship between notaires and certain agents is rather more cosy than the normal good, close working relationship (I am thinking of one notaire and agent who shared premises in a town in an adjoining département to ours). Again, this is very rare - but it pays to be aware.

I totally agree with P-D that most of the problems encountered, and suspicions aroused, come about through misunderstandings, of the language, of the different system, and of the different culture. But occasionally one comes across people who are prepared to take advantage of the naivety of people who are unfamiliar with how things are done in France. So please, if in doubt, do take independent, qualified advice. The very strong chance is that everything is in order - but if it is not, you are the ones who will be taken advantage of.

The less savoury aspects of the French property business, for those who are interested, are well covered in the book 'Selling French Dreams' by Alan Biggins. This describes happenings some years ago, so not all of the problems will occur nowadays, and it is also set in the North, where we are based, rather than the obviously even 'cleaner' south where P-D operates. And please don't run away with the impression that this is the norm; it's one person's experience at the shadier end of the market, no doubt, although based on reality, dressed up to make good reading.

House sales in France are very closely regulated and the vast majority of those involved are fair and honest. They have to be. Little space is devoted on forums like this to the thousands of transactions that go smoothly and well - understandably. Even with all the safeguards in place, and the best professionals involved, things can occasionally go wrong, and very few of those instances are down to any dishonesty on the part of the notaires or agents involved (dishonesty by private individuals is a different matter), but the negative aspects occupy a totally disproportionate amount of internet space.

In the immortal words - don't panic. The odds on everything being OK are very strong indeed, and do take notice of what P-D says because he is right.

[Angelite]

I think PDR's father's dislike of suede shoes may have something to do with their being called "brothel creepers" in the 60's.

(Sorry to lower the tone of this discussion!).

 

[anniefromwales]

I thought brothel creepers were the ones with really thick crepe soles. Usually suede I agree.