Meaning of "until"

[allanb]

If a recorded message says "le restaurant est fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre", does that mean that it will re-open on that date, or that it will be closed for a period including that date?

[5-element]

It means it is now closed until 23 September.

[allanb]

You've slightly missed my point. On 23 September, will it be open or closed?

It seems to me that it isn't quite clear in either language. I know you can make it clear in French by saying "jusqu'au 23 septembre inclus", but the message didn't say that.

[5-element]

[quote user="allanb"]You've slightly missed my point. On 23 September, will it be open or closed? It seems to me that it isn't quite clear in either language. I know you can make it clear in French by saying "jusqu'au 23 septembre inclus", but the message didn't say that.[/quote]

You're right, I missed your point. You are absolutely right to say that the message does not specify, neither does it give any leads...

There is probably no way for anyone on the forum to know the answer, so I didn't (and still don't) understand why you posed the question...

Since you are the one who (presumably)  knows the context, your guess is better than anyone here![geek]

[pachapapa]

The use of the past participle bracketting a period of time indicates that both the starting date and the finalisation date are included in the period to which the state refers; in this case the closure of a restaurant. In the event that the state changes during the period of the finalisation date then a time will be indicated to clarify the exact point of time when the state terminates. A restaurant may often remain closed until a specified evening hour.

[5-element]

[quote user="5-element"]

your guess is better than anyone here![geek]

[/quote]

(except pachapapa!) - there might even be others![:D]

Thank you PPP for clarification.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="5-element"]

your guess is better than anyone here![geek]

[/quote]

(except pachapapa!) - there might even be others![:D]

Thank you PPP for clarification.

[/quote]

[:D][:D][:D]

[allanb]

[quote user="5-element"]There is probably no way for anyone on the forum to know the answer, so I didn't (and still don't) understand why you posed the question...[/quote]My question is about the French language, and the subject of the forum is "French language".  To my simple mind the connection seems fairly obvious.

[quote]Since you are the one who (presumably) knows the context, your guess is better than anyone here![/quote]

The context was a recorded message from a restaurant.  I thought I said that.

I don't think it's clear what "until 23 September" means in English - at least, not in British English.  The Americans solve this problem by

saying "through", which means "up to and including" a date.  I don't

know whether "jusqu'à" means the same. 

I still hope that someone (French, perhaps) can say whether "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" means that it will re-open on that date, or not.  If you don't know, why reply? 

PS: I understand pachapapa's post to mean that, for instance, fermé du 16 au 23 septembre means "both dates inclusive".  If jusqu'à also means "inclusive", it would certainly be logical.

[pachapapa]

Consider the following Quebec enquiry duration.

RAPPEL: Les personnes et les groupes intéressés ont jusqu'au 23 septembre pour faire parvenir leur mémoire à la Commission d'enquête sur le processus de nomination des juges.

Il faut pour cela faire parvenir
à la Commission un mémoire écrit de 20 pages au maximum d'ici le 23 septembre
à 17h.

[5-element]

[quote user="allanb"]

I still hope that someone (French, perhaps) can say whether "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" means that it will re-open on that date, or not.  If you don't know, why reply? 

[/quote]

Errrmmm.....because I am French. What I was trying to say is that  "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" does not tell you whether it reopens on the 23rd, or on the 24th. And if I was a restaurant owner, I would be more specific on the notice.

On reflection, maybe you would prefer the opinion of somebody...even MORE French??

[pachapapa]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="allanb"]

I still hope that someone (French, perhaps) can say whether "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" means that it will re-open on that date, or not.  If you don't know, why reply? 

[/quote]

Errrmmm.....because I am French. What I was trying to say is that  "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" does not tell you whether it reopens on the 23rd, or on the 24th. And if I was a restaurant owner, I would be more specific on the notice.

On reflection, maybe you would prefer the opinion of somebody...even MORE French??

[/quote]

Yes indeed! I shall pose the question to the assembled company at the "Repas des Cheveux Blancs" this saturday; then step aside and watch the fun.[:)]

[allanb]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="allanb"]I still hope that someone (French, perhaps) can say whether "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" means that it will re-open on that date, or not.[/quote]What I was trying to say is that  "fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre" does not tell you whether it reopens on the 23rd, or on the 24th.[/quote]In other words, the words don't make it clear?  Well, that's exactly what I was trying to find out!

Incidentally, Pachapapa's example from Quebec suggests that it does have a definite meaning, i.e. "up to and including" the 23rd. 

I think I conclude that it's just as uncertain in French as it is in English.

[5-element]

 

Great idea, PPP. I would love to be a fly on the wall![:D]

[YCCMB]

I think " from Quebec" is telling, there.........[:D]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="5-element"]

 

Great idea, PPP. I would love to be a fly on the wall![:D]

[/quote]

Looking forward to saturday.[:)]

And of course french lacks the precision of other romance languages which have two verbs "to be", For example in Spanish ser and estar, Italian essere and stare and Portuguese ser and estar again. The difference in meaning of ser and estar used with the past participle is particularly onerous for french speakers.

"Hoy son flores azules, mañane seran miel".[:)]

Sorry about the missing accent over the "a" but the nettie doesn"t do ALT +.

[Russethouse]

 Hmm - is something is closed until the 23rd doesn't it mean that on the 23rd it will be open ?

In other words it means until the date becomes the 23rd, and when it does its state (closed) will change (to open)

Confused [8-)]

[allanb]

[quote user="pachapapa"]The difference in meaning of ser and estar used with the past participle is particularly onerous for french speakers.[/quote]I don't know what that has to do with "jusqu'à" but it gives me the opportunity for a little (true) anecdote:

Struggling with the language, I once asked a Spanish colleague why the Spanish had found it necessary to invent two different words for "to be".  He replied: para joder a los Ingleses.

The autocensor probably wouldn't allow me to translate that, but with a little imagination it can be done.

[allanb]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Hmm - if something is closed until the 23rd doesn't it mean that on the 23rd it will be open ?

In other words it means until the date becomes the 23rd, and when it does its state (closed) will change (to open)...[/quote]I think we have agreed that that's a possible interpretation (except maybe in Quebec). 

But, to be safe, I'll book a table for the 24th.

[Doodle]

I'm not trying to be rude or funny here but in this land of uncertainty my option would be to ring up on the 23rd see if they answer, if not, ring on the 24th and so on. We had the same problem with out local auberge in august.

Chris

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Russethouse"]
 Hmm - is something is closed until the 23rd doesn't it mean that on the 23rd it will be open ?
In other words it means until the date becomes the 23rd, and when it does its state (closed) will change (to open)

Confused [8-)]


[/quote]

The restaurant has made an error in the usage of french.

There should not have been never ever a jusque included at all......correct usage would have used .... AU 23 SEPTEMBRE.  POINT FINAL

Our local Vival superette is shut at the moment as Sylvie is on holiday. The supette will be open on tuesday 29th as monday is a rest day.

I am sure that IF I go past the boutique I will see a notice with something like..... Congé annuel du ***** AU  26 SEPTEMBRE.

The 26th is a saturday and the super will be CLOSED.[:)]

Depuis and jusque should be used to express points in time not periods of time.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I think " from Quebec" is telling, there.........[:D]
[/quote]

Ah,Ha! Antipathy for quebecish grammar and beavers...what about maple leaves.[:)]

[allanb]

[quote user="pachapapa"]The restaurant has made an error in the usage of french.  There should not have been never ever a jusque included at all...[/quote]

Jusqu'à followed by a date is not an error, but I think we've established that it's ambiguous in this context, just like "until" in English.

If what they mean is that they will be closed on the 23rd and open on the 24th, I can think of at least two ways in which they could have made that clear in ordinary French:

Le restaurant sera fermé jusqu'au 23 septembre inclus

Le restaurant est actuellement fermé et rouvrira le 24 septembre

[bubbles]

Well put, allanb!

[bubbles]

Just had a thought.

If a notice said "ferme jusqu'a neuf heures" then you'd expect it to be open AT 9 o'clock.

So, "ferme jusqu'au 9 octobre" should mean that it will open on 9th.

I'd still phone to make sure though!

[pachapapa]

[quote user="bubbles"]Just had a thought. If a notice said "ferme jusqu'a neuf heures" then you'd expect it to be open AT 9 o'clock. So, "ferme jusqu'au 9 octobre" should mean that it will open on 9th. I'd still phone to make sure though![/quote]

Dont play with dialectic ambiguities it is dangerous, causing confusion![:)]

You have used jusque for a point in time, so yes opening would occur at 9 and on 9th.[:D]