Pads is confused again

[cooperlola]

The snag is that when you're chatting to somebody, you don't always have the time to say the rhyme in your head before they have moved on to another topic![:-))]

To this day, I cannot do any sort of multiplication of any number above 5 or so without having to go through the entire multiplication table to get the answer.  It is the bane of my life - thank goodness for calculators!   I guess some methods work for some people and others for others - there is rarely a one size fits all to teaching (again, a reason why I wouldn't even begin to try it myself - leave it to the professionals.)

[pachapapa]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Angela, order of pronouns!  Blimey, what have I missed by not learning French in school....

Oh, do, do, do, please, please, please tell me how to remember order of pronouns.  I'm mostly OK until I come to sentences like "He gave it to me to give to you" when I'm still OKish but have to work it all out in my head first.

[/quote]

Why not think of a football team![;-)]

[Loiseau]

Well, here you are Sweets, since you asked SO nicely...

me, te, se, nous, vous

before

le, la, les

before

lui, leur

before

y

before

en

I still sometimes scamper through it at high speed in my head if I have a tricky bit of French writing to do!

Bonne utilisation!

Angela

PS Can't wait to hear the one about the football team, ppp

[pachapapa]

At prep school in the late 40s I met the football team; let me introduce you to them...

The 5 forwards; me,te,se,nous,vous;

the 3 half-backs; le, la, les;

the 2 backs; lui, leur;

the goal-keeper; y

and not forgetting the reserve; en.

[:D]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

At prep school in the late 40s I met the football team; let me introduce you to them...

The 5 forwards; me,te,se,nous,vous;

the 3 half-backs; le, la, les;

the 2 backs; lui, leur;

the goal-keeper; y

and not forgetting the reserve; en.

[:D]

[/quote]Now you've switched me off altogether.[Www]

[NormanH]

That's cos the newer football teams don't use 5 3 2 any longer [:)]

[Loiseau]

Ah, well we played netball, so Miss O'Sheill never mentioned a football connection!

Angela

[Chancer]

Can someone give me an or some examples of how that rule works in a sentence please?

Perhaps some incorrect useage might also illuminate things.

The problem I have is in imagining a sentence that would contain even some of those grammatical terms in that order.

Thank you

[cooperlola]

They rarely all appear together Chance.  However

The order is

1. le la les

2. moi

3. nous vous lui leur

4. m' t'

5.y

6 en

Thus: Donne-le moi;  Donnez-la lui; Donnez-nous en; Donnez-m'en  etc.

Edit : More...  Elle me le donne; je m'y interesse; je t'y invite; il m'en donne; je le lui donne; tu lui en donne....  (I could go on, but I won't!)

[trastu]

Here are a few examples from my grammar book:

I gave it to him/her - je le lui ai donné

He explained it to me - il me l'a expliqué

I put them there this morning - je les y ai mis ce matin

I don't have the time to explain it to you - Je n'ai pas le temps de te l'expliquer

Hope this helps.

[Loiseau]

Some rather unimaginative examples off the top of my head:

Il nous en a parlé (He has told me about it)

Je la lui ai envoyée (I have sent it to him)

Il y en a (There is/are some)

Hope those help to see the context.

Not sure your list is quite right there, Coops. Plus, m' and t' are really me and te, and would hang in with nous and vous.

"Donnez-m'en". Shouldn't it be "Donnez moi en" ?

Angela

EDIT: Whoops, spent too long on that, so seem to have duplicated the post above - sorry!

[NormanH]

Apparently 'moi' and 'toi' are replaced with' m' or 't' before 'en' and 'y' in a command, when they come after the verb...

So..Donnez-m'en

but it does feel odd, and I'm not sure I have ever heard it

[pachapapa]

va-t'en is fairly common bits can be added to it like green monsters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QjfY6iQ9u8

[Loiseau]

I think that's simply the imperative of the verb "s'en aller" isn't it?

I stand to be corrected here, but I think the t' in va-t'en just comes from it being a reflexive verb, rather than being put there on purpose as the direct or indirect object. (Can't do emoticons in this browser, but would be doing a puzzled one here.)

Angela

[NormanH]

Just to add that one hears

'Donnez moi un' which is very close in sound to the 'Donnez moi en' that you feel is right

[mint]

[quote user="Loiseau"]I think that's simply the imperative of the verb "s'en aller" isn't it? I stand to be corrected here, but I think the t' in va-t'en just comes from it being a reflexive verb, rather than being put there on purpose as the direct or indirect object. (Can't do emoticons in this browser, but would be doing a puzzled one here.) Angela[/quote]

Bonsoir, guys

I just go off for the day and here you have all been discussing the order of pronouns!  I feel I have missed out somewhat.

Anyway, to begin at the beginning:  thank you, Angela for giving me the order of pronouns.  Thank you to you too, Pacha, and OH has confirmed that they no longer have those positions in football and that you are just giving away your age![6]  (sorry, I'm only repeating what he said!)

Then, I agree with Angela about va-t-en because I have a neighbour who was making a nuisance of himself and used to call round whenever OH was out.  Eventually, I said (OK then, shouted) allez vous en and, indeed, he doesn't call round anymore!

I had problems with things like "I haven't seen you for a long time, how are you?" and now I just learn whole phrases by heart and I say, "Je ne vous ai pas vue depuis longtemps!"

I am fortunate in that I have a very good ear and (usually) quite a good memory![:D]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"]Apparently 'moi' and 'toi' are replaced with' m' or 't' before 'en' and 'y' in a command, when they come after the verb...
So..Donnez-m'en
but it does feel odd, and I'm not sure I have ever heard it
[/quote]Quite.  I didn't make this up - it's just what I was taught.  However, much as with English (sorry to bring up the "old country"  Norman!), it's useage (and abuseage) which counts.  Language evolves.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Loiseau"]I think that's simply the imperative of the verb "s'en aller" isn't it? I stand to be corrected here, but I think the t' in va-t'en just comes from it being a reflexive verb, rather than being put there on purpose as the direct or indirect object. (Can't do emoticons in this browser, but would be doing a puzzled one here.) Angela[/quote]

Allez-vous-en![6][:)]

[Loiseau]

[geek]     [;-)]

(Had to specially switch browser to do those!)

[Chancer]

Thank you all for your examples, this one made me smile. - I don't have the time to explain it to you - Je n'ai pas le temps de te l'expliquer.

I am afraid that even with the examples the rule(s) still goes straight over the top of my head and if I try to construct a sentence using it I just get a mental blockage.

BUT!

I am hugely encouraged to realise that pretty much all the examples I have used and do use on a daily basis without error, just from absorbtion.

If I am aware that I have a problem with something then I become very self conscious and the problem gets much worse, the mental block again, ignorance can indeed be bliss and had enabled me to get thus far, I only recently started using "en" in speeech after hearing it all the time and gaining the confidence to use it in sentences, I cant say that I really thought about the construction of the sentences containing it, they just sort of started of their own accord.

Because I have so little daily social contact with people and virtually none at all during any school holidays I would say that 98% of my learning comes from watching the television, it amazes me when I analyse that I must sub-consciously block out what doesnt make sense to follow what does, for example a year ago I would have said I understand 100% of what I heard yet only recently did "en" make it through this filter to my consciousness, clearly it has always  been in the paroles.

It gives me confidence to know that aside from falling into habits of bad speech, and I do hear a lot around here, I will carry on learning by absorbtion, after all I dont know any of these rules in the English language (dont understand would be more accurate).

[cooperlola]

Chance, that is pretty much the point which I was trying to make to Pads at the bottom of page 2.  These rules,rhymes etc etc are actually b*g all use in conversation because by the time you've gone through them to get to the bit you want, it is too late.  

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?  "You've got to practice."  Using language is really the only way to learn to speak it naturally, especially if that's the way learning works for you.

[Loiseau]

Exactly. It's the way we learn our mother tongue, after all.

Young children start by banging out simple requests/orders: "Drink!" "More!" etc, and gradually progress to structured sentences.

It's just the same with picking up a foreign language by talking/listening to native-speakers.

Chancer, do you ever put the (French) subtitles on when watching French tv programmes? I often do that if it's something like a gangster mpovie, with lots of mumbled asides, and plenty of slang. It's surprising what words are in there, when you see them written down!

Angela

[mint]

Chance, you are in good company because I, too, repeat what I hear and don't worry too much about the grammar.  Up to now, that is!

OTOH I am grateful to Norman for bringing up the rule that l'ordre est inversé à la 3e personne.  So:  Elle le lui explique, Nous les leur apportons and that "y" prècède "en" dans Il y en a.

So, I have even more reason to be grateful to Angela because her way of remembering the order of pronouns takes all of that into account as well![:D][:D][:D]

[woolybanana]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Exactly. It's the way we learn our mother tongue, after all. Young children start by banging out simple requests/orders: "Drink!" "More!" etc, and gradually progress to structured sentences. It's just the same with picking up a foreign language by talking/listening to native-speakers. Chancer, do you ever put the (French) subtitles on when watching French tv programmes? I often do that if it's something like a gangster mpovie, with lots of mumbled asides, and plenty of slang. It's surprising what words are in there, when you see them written down! Angela[/quote]

Which is why Angela speaks in a mumble with plenty of slang![6]

Of course, many young children remain at that linguistic level until well beyond adolescence  - thus the young adult whine of "More" or "Money" goes on for years and years and years and years and years....

[Chancer]

When I first arrived many people remarked "tu parle comme un petit negre".

I think it was using every verb in the infinitif form that did it!