pronunciation question

[Patf]

The lady on the fish counter at Intermarché likes to correct my french pronunciation. Today I commented that the "truite" looked "très fraiche".

I pronounced très as in english, with the "e" as in "set" and sounding the "s". So she corrected me to say "tray". And truite she pronounced "truit- u".

 Is that normal or is it a dialect thing?

[pachapapa]

Everybody does it, sounds like an acute accent, gives more emphasis.[;-)]

http://www.forvo.com/word/tr%C3%A8s_tr%C3%A8s_chic/#fr

http://www.forvo.com/search/tr%C3%A8s/

[Patf]

Thanks for that - sounds like halfway between "e" and "ay." But definitely no "s" on the end.

[NormanH]

s at the end of most words is silent, unless another word beginning with a vowel follows, and then you here it in a 'liaison'

tri (with the i as in 'it'... a very short sound) for très

but triz before a word like 'amusant'

triz_amusant

the 'e' at the end of word is especially marked in the South

truite = trrrweeet_uh

[idun]

I would have said 'tray' and as NH said 'trrrweeet - uh'.

'Trez' would be before a vowel. In my neck of the woods, certainly 'trez' and not 'triz'.

[NormanH]

You are right idun [:$]

I was forgetting that tri is the southern accent [:)]

I even saw one of my colleagues write

"trés bien" because that very short i sound is how it is said here.

Of course in standard French it should be like trea in "tread"

I avoid writing 'tray' because that can give the typical British fault of turning into a diphthong 'tray..ee..uh'

[idun]

I reckon that I would have picked up a pretty decent southern accent, but a 'normal' french one is illusive.

I just love the the 'sink' for cinq etc. I remember once being asked if I could understand those from the south, and much to their surprise I said I could.

[Loiseau]

Patf, as said above, "tray" is a pretty good approximation of the real pronounciation of tres; you would only pronounce the "s" on the end if you wanted to say "tres ennuyeux" (sorry, can't do accents on here!), or something else where the following word began with a vowel.

The fact that she said "trweet-uh" was just to show you that there was a letter "e" at the end of the word truite.  You would never say it like that really.  Just "trweet".

Angela

[mint]

[quote user="Loiseau"]

The fact that she said "trweet-uh" was just to show you that there was a letter "e" at the end of the word truite.  You would never say it like that really.  Just "trweet".

Angela

[/quote]

Au contraire, Angela, here in the south-west, people quite often say every syllable.  Thus, trueet-uh, quarant-uh, feey-uh.(fille), côt-uh du Rhone, and so on.

I used to think that they just do it to me feel "foreign" especially the woman at the post office who used to correct me when I asked for dix timbres à soixante (oh the days when stamps pour Angleterre were only 60 cents!) by saying soixant-uh!

Of course now, my neighbour, with whom I go to excercise class twice a week and we are on "tu" terms and are good companionable friends, says bonn-uh nuit to me.

So, I guess that, although not in any of the pronunciation books, in the south west, it's fine to sound every syllable!

[idun]

Loiseau, how do you get that 'te' sound over at the end of truite then? I find with my mouth in french mode if I don't '-uh', even a tadge, I cannot get the 'te' sound in and it is just about silent.

[NormanH]

This well-loved old classic  shows the way the 'e' at the end of certain words is pronounced as 'uh'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q24qnmpbdOU

if you scroll down on the video you can follow the text [:D]

or:

• Elle était jeune fille

  Sortait tout droit de son couvent

  Innocente et gentille

  Qui n'avait pas seize ans

  Le jeudi, jour de visite,

  Elle venait chez ma mère

  Et elle nous jouait la Truite

  La Truite de Schubert

• Un soir de grand orage

  Elle dut coucher à la maison

  Or malgré son jeune âge

  Elle avait de l'obstination

  Et pendant trois heures de suite

  Au milieu des éclairs

  Elle nous a joué la Truite

  La Truite de Schubert

• On lui donna ma chambre

  Moi je couchai dans le salon

  Mais je crus bien comprendre

  Que ça ne serait pas long

  En effet elle revint bien vite

  Pieds nus, dans les courants d'air

  Pour me chanter la Truite

  La Truite de Schubert

• Ce fut un beau solfège

  Pizzicattis coquins

  Accords, trémolos et arpèges

  Fantaisie à quatre mains

  Mais à l'instant tout s'agite

  Sous l'ardent aiguillon de la chair

  Elle, elle fredonnait la Truite

  La Truite de Schubert

• Je lui dis: Gabrielle

  Voyons, comprenez mon émoi

  Il faut être fidèle

  Ce sera Schubert ou moi

  C'est alors que je compris bien vite

  En lisant dans ses yeux pervers

  Qu'elle me réclamait la suite

  La suite du concert

• Six mois après l'orage

  Nous fûmes dans une situation

  Telle que le mariage

  Était la seule solution

  Mais avec un air insolite

  Au lieu de dire oui au maire

  Elle lui a chanté la Truite

  La Truite de Schubert

• C'est fou ce que nous fîmes

  Contre cette obsession

  On mit Gabrielle au régime

  Lui supprimant le poisson

  Mais par une journée maudite

  Dans le vent, l'orage et les éclairs

  Elle mit au monde une truite

  Qu'elle baptisa Schubert.

• A présent je vis seul

  Tout seul dans ma demeure

  Gabrielle est partie et n'a plus sa raison

  Dans sa chambre au Touquet elle reste des heures

  Auprès d'un grand bocal où frétille un poisson

  Et moi j'ai dit à Marguerite

  Qui est ma vieille cuisinière

  Ne me faites plus jamais de truite

  Ça me donne de l'urticaire.

[Chancer]

[quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Loiseau"]

[/quote]

Of course now, my neighbour, with whom I go to excercise class twice a week and we are on "tu" terms and are good companionable friends, says bonn-uh nuit to me.

[/quote]

Isnt that because its a feminine noun?

I always emphasise the bonn_uh (bonne) on a feminine noun to differentiate it from bon.

Tray bon is about the limit of the vocabulary of most Brits around here and it really grates with me when I hear très pronounced as tray.

Of course if I understood phonetic spelling there would be no need to misinterpret tray or tri.

Adding an uh to the end of a word is just affected speech in my opinion, a bit like an enthusiatic bingo or darts caller, - "Cinquant-uh huit-uh!!

The one that I simply cannot stand and seems to be 95% of the vocabulary of the people around here is the interminable "euuhh', it drives me potty as with the Picard accent they just sound like morons that cannot string two words together, come to think of it...................... [;-)]

Do you remember the adverts for Cadburys fingers, the one where the older brother is supposed to be sharing the treat with his younger brother but cons him? The little boy whom I am sure was picked because he was a halfwit said, - "Deuuhh I wish I was as clever as you Brian!"

Henceforth amongts my pals anyone a few bricks short of a load was known as a "DeuuhhBrian", from the way they speak and that includes the radio presenters who are by far the worst, they are all DeuuhhBrians around here.

Sometimes I watch people on the telly and try to repeat every euuhh, I honestly cannot keep up with them sometimes.

[mint]

Très drôle, Norman, but how am I going to be able to listen to the trout quintet again without giggling?

[Patf]

I enjoyed that Norman [:D]

So next time I buy some fish I'll definitely say "la truit-UH."

[mint]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Isnt that because its a feminine noun?

I always emphasise the bonn_uh (bonne) on a feminine noun to differentiate it from bon.

 

[/quote]

I don't think that's the reason, DeuuhChance!

After all, "bon" sounds NOTHING like "bonne"!

And then they say Charl-uh de Gaull-uh........and HE's definitely not a feminine noun?

[Chancer]

Charles is an odd one, I always want to make a liason and say CharlessAsnavour but its pronounced Charle Aznavour.

Bon sounds exactly like bonne when it comes from the mouth of an Anglais [:P] Its one that I constantly have to practice hence my emphasis.

Je te souhaite une bonnuh nuit et euhhh.............., bon dodo [;-)]

[idun]

But you can say 'tray' with a french accent, or at least the best french accent a person can really really, or was that really really really try to do[Www].

If I can say it, I do try and roll my 'r's'.

I have pm'd you Chancer

[Loiseau]

I know what you mean about the euhhhhhhhhhhhh, Chancer!  I think it's a way of hanging on to control of the conversation while the speaker does some thinking.

Here in the Vendee, what drives me mad is the way many people say "hein?" at the end of every sentence!  Sometimes dropping a few into the middle, too.
"C'etait difficile, hein?"  "C'est bon, hein?"

Angela

[Chancer]

I think you could be correct as I am constantly interrupted.

What about "Quoi!" as in "you know!" or "innit!" that has become quite prevalent but at least they dont say "like" all the time and still use the past tense, in the UK all I hear is "and i'm like whoah! and he's like so what!" to describe a past event.

[Loiseau]

Better start polishing up those "euhhhhhh"s then Chancer!

Yes, of course the "hein?" and "quoi?" are "innit?" !!  I hadn't thought of that!  [:D]

Loved The Trout, by the way Norman!   [;-)]  Thanks. 

Angela

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Patf"]Thanks for that - sounds like halfway between "e" and "ay." But definitely no "s" on the end.
[/quote]

There is a "trayzamoosant" in the list.[:P]

[mint]

What I want to know is, does "hein" tagged on at the end of a sentence invite agreement or dissent?[:)]

It's a serious question because I'm trying to work out whether it is the equivalent of "pardi".

This is an example from a sud-ouest journal:

Que faire pour éviter ces coupures (d'électricité)?

Consommer moins d'électricité, pardi!

As most self-evident truths, this one, as they say is a no-brainer [:D]

[allanb]

The trouble with this sort of discussion is that we don't know which region the writer comes from.

The English word "tray" as pronounced by someone from the south of England, or the Midlands, is not much like the French très; as Norman said, the vowel is a diphthong, rhyming (more or less) with French soleil or bouteille.

But I think Norman was wrong to say "typically British."  In most of northern England, and in Scotland, the vowel in "tray" is not a diphthong.  Most Scots pronounce it as the French would pronounce tré, if there was such a word.  And in Cumbria or Lancashire, "tray" sounds quite like the standard French très - apart from the "r" sound, which is a different topic.

   

[mint]

Strangely enough, allanb, OH and I were on a longish car journey today and we were talking about the diphthong and très!!!

Him being Welsh, he doesn't do a diphthong with this word and I, knowing better, don't either.

But then, he claims that I say "now" as a diphthong and that he doesn't!

Of course, "now" is a diphthong.....me, what do I know?  Neither English nor French is my first language after all!

[water rat]

I am a cockney, so my french accent is abysmal. If I can put a y in anywhere ,I will. A french friend asked me the english names of trees and I heard " maypull' coming back at me. Tres has got to be traie in my world of the glottl stop!!