pronunciation question

[YCCMB]

[quote user="allanb"]The trouble with this sort of discussion is that we don't know which region the writer comes from.

The English word "tray" as pronounced by someone from the south of England, or the Midlands, is not much like the French très; as Norman said, the vowel is a diphthong, rhyming (more or less) with French soleil or bouteille.

But I think Norman was wrong to say "typically British."  In most of northern England, and in Scotland, the vowel in "tray" is not a diphthong.  Most Scots pronounce it as the French would pronounce tré, if there was such a word.  And in Cumbria or Lancashire, "tray" sounds quite like the standard French très - apart from the "r" sound, which is a different topic.

   

[/quote]

Exactly. My liguistics prof at University used to tell us that it's much easier to speak French with a reasonable accent the further north your origins in the British Isles. Northern accents have "purer" vowel sounds than southern, particularly Home Counties southern. Probably why at least one of my French friends (who speaks excellent English) keeps telling me that she understands every word I say when I speak French, but finds my English unintelligible.

I can "do" a French accent without much trouble, thanks to my Coronation Street roots. Unfortunately, after well over 30 years in the south east of England, I'm still the Eliza Doolittle of received pronunciation.

[idun]

Would that that were true about being from the north,  I cannot help but wonder how much worse mine would be if I was further south. Not much, I dare say.

[NormanH]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="allanb"]The trouble with this sort of discussion is that we don't know which region the writer comes from.

The English word "tray" as pronounced by someone from the south of England, or the Midlands, is not much like the French très; as Norman said, the vowel is a diphthong, rhyming (more or less) with French soleil or bouteille.

But I think Norman was wrong to say "typically British."  In most of northern England, and in Scotland, the vowel in "tray" is not a diphthong.  Most Scots pronounce it as the French would pronounce tré, if there was such a word.  And in Cumbria or Lancashire, "tray" sounds quite like the standard French très - apart from the "r" sound, which is a different topic.

   

[/quote]

Exactly. My liguistics prof at University used to tell us that it's much easier to speak French with a reasonable accent the further north your origins in the British Isles. Northern accents have "purer" vowel sounds than southern, particularly Home Counties southern. Probably why at least one of my French friends (who speaks excellent English) keeps telling me that she understands every word I say when I speak French, but finds my English unintelligible.

I can "do" a French accent without much trouble, thanks to my Coronation Street roots. Unfortunately, after well over 30 years in the south east of England, I'm still the Eliza Doolittle of received pronunciation.

[/quote]

 Her pronunciation problems had a great deal to do with diphthongs as I remember..

[Gardengirl]

It was also impressed on me years ago when on a course in Paris that the further north a person's origins, the better their French pronunciation tended to be. I knew this wasn't across the board, as French pronunciation in my class at school in north-eastern UK varied from not sounding anything like the teachers (all English, some from the south!) to much more French-sounding than the teachers - those from wealthy homes, who spent time on holiday in France several times a year. Of course, I had no real idea of how French really sounded at that stage, never having been to France and never knowingly heard any French spoken by a French person. Norwegian, yes - we had a lot of young Norwegian men studying at the tech each year.

The prof who spoke about pronunciation said that the best French pronunciation he'd heard from an English person without any family connections with France had been born and bred in Berwick on Tweed.

I think that someone from the north (what I call the real north) tends to have a head start with French pronunciation, because of the vowel sounds they already use, but so much depends on a person's ear too. I pick up accents quite well, whether in UK or France, and I'm often thought to originate from Ireland or Wales by people from UK. My OH finds it difficult to pick out sounds, although he's much more musical than me - I'm hopeless at catching or holding  musical notes; at one time I thought musical people might be better at French pronunciation, but find it isn't necessarily so. Ialso used to think a Scottish background helped, with words in common to start with, but a few Scottish people around us have made me give up that idea, as they find it so hard to hear and pronounce French.

[idun]

I have to beg to differ about the vowel sounds, I am from the real north and yet speak with very flat vowel sounds, which do not come from the same part of my mouth as I need for french. I know on tv, they see NE England for programs and give everyone a geordie type accent no matter where they are from, but some of us just do not really have that accent, although I recognise a very slight twang in our accents, but that is all, that those that don't know, confuse with a proper geordie/durham/sunderland accent when it is miles off.

Strangely my friend reckons that her husband speaks received pronunciation and yet he was on tv a couple of years ago and his local accent shone through brilliantly, not a strong accent, but there never the less.

I do agree those from Berwick and environs probably have the best chance at some of those vowel sounds, with their hint of scot mixed into a geordie type accent.

 

Isn't it all down to the 'ear' and the 'gift' at the end of the day?

[Patf]

Another aspect of pronunciation is the rhythm and almost musical intonation thoughout a phrase or sentence. I think this is linked to having a "musical ear".

People from N. Northumberland perhaps have an advantage here too as our speech can be very sing-song.

[idun]

That is the expression Patf, 'sing song'. And even us flatter vowel sounders have that somehow. I never noticed when I lived here from birth, but moving away, and I started to hear it and realise that that is how the people from the rest of the country get confused.

In Newcastle they think I am from Carlisle, which I am not, at all.