vivienz Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 There has been a low level but constant rumbling of disagreement in my French conversation class for some weeks now over the correct term for describing salty or savoury food. Our French teacher insists that the correct term for savoury is epicé(e) even when we are talking, for instance, about ready salted crisps and there is no spice involved at all. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Not that long after we arrived here in Morbihan I was told épicé was spicy, salé was savoury and sucré was sweet.This in reference to a bring-along-a-dish supper and I was asked was I bringing épicé, salé or sucré and all I could do was grin until all was explained to me.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Thanks, Sue. That's pretty much how I understood it to be until my French teacher confused things. I'll just keep my own counsel on it for the time being! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I stand to be corrected but I think that épicé for spicy does not necessarily mean "hot spicey" as in a curry or as in chili con carne.The spices used could be sweet spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, etc.None of my French friends seem to like hot spicey but they do love their pain d'épices, cakes with spices, etc.So maybe your classmates are arguing about spicey as in containing spices but not as in spicey as we commonly use the word. In their contewt then spicey could be sweet OR savoury! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Thanks, mint. In this instance, it's actually our French teacher who is insisting that épicé means savoury and, quite specifically, when referring to things that don't contain any spice at all, hence the reference to salty crisps. To my mind, spicy can be sweet or savoury, as you clearly say. A custard tart just wouldn't be the same without that little sprinkle of nutmeg on the top, would it? I'm also partial to a bit of pain d'épices, too. I'll definitely keep quiet on this one as we could spend an entire evening arguing about it. I thought it was interesting, though, when I was in St Malo last December and mulled wine was being sold as vin chaud; I expected it to be vin épicé, but seemingly the physical heat wins in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I agree with Sue and I would not use épicé to describe a salty savoury.Vivienz, is your French teacher actually French?A bit of Googling brings up some good definitions and to my mind épicé and salé are two different things.I don't think this link below will work but take a look at Google.http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/francais-anglais/sal%C3%A9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Cendrillon - yes, she is French, which is why I raised the question. My suspicions were roused when she repeated it recently, but after she said 'épicé' in French, she then said 'salty, spicy, in English and so I don't think she is differentiating between the terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 She probably doesn't understand the English terms.épicé is spiced in the sense of cinnamon nutmeg etc. (think of pain d'épices)salé is savoury sucré is sweet dishes un goût relevé is hot or 'spicy' in that sense, although it can also just mean a 'pronounced' flavour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I only ever heard the terms 'sucré' 'salé'. 'Epicé' is quite different as far as I am concerned. And it is true, that for all one can buy harissa in France and eat a good coucous , une assiette relevé.... which in fact can easily be hot and spicy, the people I know still might not use the term 'epicé'.When you eat out and there is fromage blanc, don't they ask if you want 'sucré' ou 'salé'....... and my best friend always says 'salé' and then puts pepper on it........ each to their own. Me, Mme Gourmandise, it's always 'sucré' which for me is some sugar and then coulis AND creme every time.[Www]NH, your post was not there before I started answering, but yes, what you said too[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 "She probably doesn't understand the English terms." I was going to say the same as you.Your explanations are well put Norman.P.S. Vivienz I have sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 [quote user="NormanH"]She probably doesn't understand the English terms. un goût relevé is hot or 'spicy' in that sense, although it can also just mean a 'pronounced' flavour [/quote]In my recent, numerous exchanges of emails with banks, relevé CAN only mean the one thing! My bank statement as we call it in English[:D]Anyway, after ditching the one bank and arguing with another, I might actually have succeeded in persuading a third to deign to take some money from me and keep it until such times as I need it myself [blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Thanks, all. Good to know that my classmates and I weren't off the mark.Mint - equally useful to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Where does piquante fit in?We made a rice dish that is spicy for one of the hamlet's do's and, knowing that the older French dont do spicy, I put a label on saying piquante and only the youngsters ate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 [quote user="mint"][quote user="NormanH"]She probably doesn't understand the English terms. un goût relevé is hot or 'spicy' in that sense, although it can also just mean a 'pronounced' flavour [/quote]In my recent, numerous exchanges of emails with banks, relevé CAN only mean the one thing! My bank statement as we call it in English[:D]Anyway, after ditching the one bank and arguing with another, I might actually have succeeded in persuading a third to deign to take some money from me and keep it until such times as I need it myself [blink][/quote]In the banking world and also taking meter readings the term is relève, for hot curry type foods which dont necessarily have to contain any spices, it could just be chillis then the term is relevé, note the different accents and prononciations.Normans postsis spot on the money, dont know what country this French teacher resides but she either doesnt understand the English nuances or perhaps i she remained in the UK after her education may have forgotten the French or maybe not even have known all the nuances. I once had a Swiss native French teacher and she had been in the UK so long she often could not answer questions like a native speaker could and it always ended up being a class debate to find a consensus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Piquant, I would say was hot as in chilli hot and spicy. Well that is how I would use it, but sometimes I do get things wrong.[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 [quote user="Chancer"][quote user="mint"][quote user="NormanH"]She probably doesn't understand the English terms. un goût relevé is hot or 'spicy' in that sense, although it can also just mean a 'pronounced' flavour [/quote]In my recent, numerous exchanges of emails with banks, relevé CAN only mean the one thing! My bank statement as we call it in English[:D]Anyway, after ditching the one bank and arguing with another, I might actually have succeeded in persuading a third to deign to take some money from me and keep it until such times as I need it myself [blink][/quote]In the banking world and also taking meter readings the term is relève, for hot curry type foods which dont necessarily have to contain any spices, it could just be chillis then the term is relevé, note the different accents and prononciations.[/quote]Well, Chance, just to prove a point, I now have my bank statement in front of me and, right at the top, in the right hand corner, it says:Relevé édité le 25 septembre 2014So there you go! Or are you trying to tell me that the bank is wrong?Mind you, the bank is often wrong about things but I think the use of relevé that I employed is right[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 You are both right and there, that's an end to that little debate (and it is used for other things too), but relevé for certain food is a very good word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 in "Un relevé" de compte the word relevé is a masculine noun, a thing in itself.In 'relevé' in the phrase I quoted the word relevé is an adjective describing (or qualifying) the noun 'goût' http://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/un+go%C3%BBt+relev%C3%A9.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Norman, I realise yours is an adjective because it comes after the noun for taste.In replying to your earlier post, I was making a bit of a joke and being deliberating dense when I brought up the subject of bank accounts because I'd just read an email from the bank when I replied.I was really arguing with Chancer about the pronunciation and the acute accent: re-le-vé...........there I knew it was right if only because I have been bandying that word back and forth with the bank in the past several days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 LOL Mint, re pronunciation........ there is tear and live in english......... each use the same spelling for different pronunciations and completely different meanings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Been off-line for 36 hours due to storms , so I can now only add confirmation of what has already been written.Air France with their in-flight haute cuisine offering on short haul flights (ie a packet of biscuits) offer salé or sucré. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 [quote user="idun"]LOL Mint, re pronunciation........ there is tear and live in english......... each use the same spelling for different pronunciations and completely different meanings. [/quote]Except in this case, id, there IS a difference![:)]Checked with the French teacher today.Relevé is as in bank statement (comme je vous ai dit!) and as NH has explained about un gout relevé. For cheese that is relevé, you would say un fromage corsé [B]Relève, as in Chance's thinking, means a continuation or un remplaçant. Someone finishes work and un relève comes along and carries on.BTW, she doesn't think that piquant is a good word to use for any food as, although it might mean spicey, it has negative connotations. She gives the example of un vin piquant and it's NOT one you would like to drink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 My apologies, I am not in France so didnt have my dictionaries with me and used the spellcheck on the computer to check the accents, it proposed relevé and relève, I had a sneaking feeling that the latter was used when I take meter readings for EDF, not so sure now that its true.I was reading a book last night and read piquant(e) and like others thought that was a good term to use for spicy food.All my french diving buddies used to take the Mick out of me when we ate out saying "il veut spysee" which for reasons I dont understand or really care about always had them in fits of laughter, just like they used to call my flourescent painted diving weights (so they can be recovered if dropped or lost) "gay pride" once again something which to me was only mildly amusing (and homophobic) would get trotted out hindreds of times and always had everyone but me in stitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I'm not disagreeing mint, and, yes, for a strong cheese 'corsé' is the word to use. But a plat, so a dish, when it is, shall we say 'well seasoned' with spices, relevé is a perfectly good word. Relevé when used for a bank statement is 'relevé de compte' so the relevé means 'statement' and is also used in things like 'relevé de carriere' and 'relevé d'identité bancaire'. In this general sense, I suppose that it is a record, a statement can even be some sort of inventory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 MintShe probably doesn't like Chorizo piquant either.Spicy wine is what you get in Winter when the cafes and bars serve vin chaud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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