Difficult pool builder

[Steve]

Cooperlola

3 Euros + per m3. We are on mains sewerage.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Steve"]
I agree with your highlighted point.

however I think you need to get out more
[/quote]

Was that meant for me?

[Chancer]

[quote user="Benjamin"]The knockers are out in force again just because Steve expects that when someone says they'll pay they actually do so.

For those posters who think it's not worth pursuing €173 what's your limit then? Obviously more than €173.

[/quote]

Benjamin

According to the story recounted nobody said that they would pay for the water, the company rep said "dont worry about it"

People have suggested that it is not worth pursuing as the cost of doing so would eclipse the claim and the chances of winning are as close to zero as is possible.

If the original price for the pool and installation included the water contained in it then there may have been a tiny justification for expecting it to be refilled.

[tegwini]

Our 18 year old daughter, a rather naive girl  raised in a village, was underpaid by over £50, by a local  Wiltshire pub in her summer holiday job.  The publican also ripped her off by deducting too much tax/NIC which she should not have paid, and we had a struggle to get a P45/60 or any paperwork from him. We suspected that he did not pay the money over. Since husband is a CA he tried it on the wrong person.  We knew exactly what hours she did as we were the taxi for her split shifts and unsocial hours.

We sued him in the small claims court, after  written  warnings, and judgement was awarded against him, still no payment, so we used the court's baliff also via the internet.  He had to pay up now and it cost him over £155 with the court & bailiff costs.   It was easy to do for my husband, and  he did warn  them in writing & via the phone.   This publican is either a fool or arrogant.

A  good result, and no costs to our daughter.   For her this was a lot of money, and we objected to her being ripped off.

I can't see why the poster should have  been criticised the way he has been.

 But, I have no idea if such a system exists in France.

Tegwini

 

 

 

 

[Steve]

J.R's

I believe any builder is obligated to make good his poor workmanship and to do this it was necessary for our pool builder to empty the pool. Therefore, surely the builder pays for all costs associated with the necessary work which includes the refill. Apart from the173€, which I consider not to be a pittance,  it is also a point of principle.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="J.Rs gone native"]

If the original price for the pool and installation included the water contained in it then there may have been a tiny justification for expecting it to be refilled.

[/quote]

I expect the original cost was for the pool and installation and the cost of filling it would have been down to Steve. Fair enough.

However, if the job had been done properly in the first place then he would not have expected to have to drain his (paid for) water out of the pool then refill it a second time at his cost. 

The poor job by the builder has resulted in him paying twice for the water to fill the pool, so he's perfectly entitled to complain about it......

 

 

[brianagain]

I'm no legal expert but perhaps Steve's permanent address may be helpful, ie he lives in the UK but his swimming pool is in a holiday home in France: quote:

"European small claims procedure

What do I do I bought something from a trader in France and I want to make a claim?

At the moment your only option is to sue them in France. However, as

of 1 January 2009 there will be a new cross-border procedure. This will

mean that if you have a small claim (one with a value of  €2000 or

less) against a person who lives in another member state, then you can

issue proceedings in your local court, and any resulting judgment will

be enforceable directly in the defendant's member state."

www.which.co.uk/advice/taking-a-dispute-to-the-small-claims-court/faqs/index.jsp

Brian (again)

[Patf]

Brian - I wonder if this is the same Steve? There seem to be at least two posting currently, with different joining dates.

Here is the other one:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1503360/ShowPost.aspx

Pat.

[Steve]

Brianagain

Yes, I spotted the same article.

We live in France, 365

Steve

[Just Chris]

I strikes me that if it's cost you money to put right some coq-up by a contractor you've employed, then you should have some legal redress in order to recover your money so that you're not out of pocket. 175 Euros is not to be sneezed at in this current climate.

I have a vague interest in this, because our pool liner will be replaced in April, and I have qualms about how much it's going to cost to totally refill (about 80 cubic metres).  Also a bit worried as to where the water will go when we empty it!!  When we drop the level in the winter, the water runs down the road and sort of disappears.  A poolfull, I suspect, will be noticed...

Chris

[Théière]

Don't forget to make sure all the chlorine has evaporated otherwise you could get in more trouble

[Just Chris]

It's a saltwater pool, so I suppose that has it's own inherent disposal problems.  At least any lying ice/snow (in April?) will be dealt a blow...

Chris

[Boiling a frog]

Steve

Have a read at all the steps you need to take ,it is in French.

http://www.dgccrf.bercy.gouv.fr/profil_particuliers/index.htm

There is a very rough guide in English if you clik on the flag.

However if you wish to proceed you will need to speak French ,write in French and if you cannot then you will have to find someone who can.

Bear in mind that you need proof that the contractor owes you the money. You do not seem to have that proof, you did not enter into any sort of agreement with the contractor and altho it may seem obvious that thro his fault you lost the sum of 172€ to refill your pool the law in France may not look on it that way.

Perhaps find out when the chambre de advocat have a free consultation day in your region and ask their opinion (otherwise it is around 200€ for a consultation)

I say this from experience, being currently in dispute with a window installer who made a mess of installing and measuring my windows.

 

[Théière]

So make sure sure the salt level is a low as possible AND the chlorine has evaporated.

Salt = sodium + chlorine = weed killer.

Salt water pools are still chlorine (bleach) pools.

(Sorry not trying to hijack this thread)

[Steve]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

Steve

Have a read at all the steps you need to take ,it is in French.

http://www.dgccrf.bercy.gouv.fr/profil_particuliers/index.htm

There is a very rough guide in English if you clik on the flag.

However if you wish to proceed you will need to speak French ,write in French and if you cannot then you will have to find someone who can.

Bear in mind that you need proof that the contractor owes you the money. You do not seem to have that proof, you did not enter into any sort of agreement with the contractor and altho it may seem obvious that thro his fault you lost the sum of 172€ to refill your pool the law in France may not look on it that way.

Perhaps find out when the chambre de advocat have a free consultation day in your region and ask their opinion (otherwise it is around 200€ for a consultation)

I say this from experience, being currently in dispute with a window installer who made a mess of installing and measuring my windows.

 

[/quote]

BAF

Thanks for your help. We do have the Waterair Manager as a "witness" and he has,so he says, been trying to persuade the pool builder to pay us for the water.

Other things that have happened since September include the Waterair Recommended status being pulled by Waterair from this Pool builder. This is due to the number of complaints against the PB, his work, attitude & customer service, from Waterair clients. This means he loses the revenue from fitting around 17 pools a season. The little guy sitting on my left shoulder says...Good, serves him right, not a nice man, retribution is sweet but the guy on my right shoulder says I'm unlikely to get the water cost without doing it the hard way.

Juge d'instance &  Tribunaux d'instance are two possible areas to persue a small claim. The Juge d'instance seems to have been given more powers in the last few years

[Théière]

[quote user="Steve"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]

Steve

Have a read at all the steps you need to take ,it is in French.

http://www.dgccrf.bercy.gouv.fr/profil_particuliers/index.htm

There is a very rough guide in English if you clik on the flag.

However if you wish to proceed you will need to speak French ,write in French and if you cannot then you will have to find someone who can.

Bear in mind that you need proof that the contractor owes you the money. You do not seem to have that proof, you did not enter into any sort of agreement with the contractor and altho it may seem obvious that thro his fault you lost the sum of 172€ to refill your pool the law in France may not look on it that way.

Perhaps find out when the chambre de advocat have a free consultation day in your region and ask their opinion (otherwise it is around 200€ for a consultation)

I say this from experience, being currently in dispute with a window installer who made a mess of installing and measuring my windows.

 

[/quote]

BAF

Thanks for your help. We do have the Waterair Manager as a "witness" and he has,so he says, been trying to persuade the pool builder to pay us for the water.

Other things that have happened since September include the Waterair Recommended status being pulled by Waterair from this Pool builder. This is due to the number of complaints against the PB, his work, attitude & customer service, from Waterair clients. This means he loses the revenue from fitting around 17 pools a season. The little guy sitting on my left shoulder says...Good, serves him right, not a nice man, retribution is sweet but the guy on my right shoulder says I'm unlikely to get the water cost without doing it the hard way.

Juge d'instance &  Tribunaux d'instance are two possible areas to persue a small claim. The Juge d'instance seems to have been given more powers in the last few years


[/quote]

That does not sound good to me, if he has been struck off by Waterair he is not going to listen to them, he has no motivation to do so. So who was your original contract between? there lies the solution or lack of it.

 

 

[Steve]

Teapot wrote:  That does not sound good to me, if he has been struck off by Waterair

he is not going to listen to them, he has no motivation to do so. So

who was your original contract between? there lies the solution or lack

of it.

Steve replied

I agree its difficult, I guess his motivation should be to get put back on their recommended list but this guy is difficult and carries with him Arrogance & ignorance in large measures.

You buy a Waterair pool from Waterair. (We have been very pleased with Waterair. A very professional company.)

You then choose whether to build it yourself or go with a Recommended builder. We took the latter and a price was agreed with the Waterair Rep for the pool & the build as separate amounts.The recommended  builder then contacts you having been given your details, surveys the scene and sends you a break down of his work with the agreed stage payments. The prices matched what Waterair and I agreed.

When it comes to the liner, its fitting etc Waterair get involved using Waterair Technicians. This PB being the said Technician.

When the rework was done Waterair sent one of there own Technicians who are employed by Waterair to do the main work whilst an employee of the PB helped with the drainage of the pool, margelle removal & clean up etc Incedentally the rework hasn't solved the problem and Waterair have taken over completly and are coming back in April to fix it once and for all or if that fails they will fit a new liner. My understanding is that the PB will not have involvement in this work. So,again we have to drain & refill the pool in April & if that doesn't work drain and refill for a third time when the new liner goes in. Our position with Waterair is that they should refund the water on these further refills and then they can take the dispute to the PB if they choose. 170€ X 3 starts to really hurt when we have not caused the problems.

Steve

[PaulT]

[quote user="NormanH"]Have you any idea of the economic situation which makes your petty whinge look ridiiculous?
[/quote]

All tradesmen please note - you do not have to do all the work for which you are paid or properly because the wonderful NormanH will not complain.

He only complains if someone on this forum raises a point about which they have something to complain.

What a delightful chap you are Norman [:(]

[PaulT]

Steve

With the builder now being not recommended by the company it perhaps weakens the muscle in one way. However, the company must take responsibility after all the builder was the one recommended by them.

I would take the stance that they are ultimately responsible as you had no say over whether the builder was capable of the work and that any future rectification costs are down to them. Also it would seem that their directly employed staff had a hand in insdtalling the liner. Perhaps send them a recorded letter stating that by starting the rectification works they agree to this.

I would also add that you would not be inclined to recommend them to others unless they take responsibility.

It might be that you have to write off the 173 euros but do have a good fight before you do so.

Best of luck

Paul

[Baz]

Steve, I do not know how much water your pool holds but this may be a possible solution to your water cost. When my pool needed draining in the UK and water is free, the company transfered all my pool water 35000 litres to temporary holding tanks adjacent to the pool and refilled the original water after completing the work.  I do not know whether in France they have these facilities but they certainly should with the cost of water.

Baz

[Steve]

Baz, Thanks for the idea, I have never heard of that approach (Holding tanks) before. There view has always been drain it into the fields(once Chlorine has diminished)

P2, Thanks for your words of encouragement and ideas.  The amount is important but the principle is also up there with it. We have just

e mailed back to Waterair and we have included their words from their brochure which says:

"Picines WATERAIR sélectionne pour vous une équipe de professionnels qui se chargera de toutes les étapes de réalisation"

They do need to take more responsibility, particularly as the PB has chosen not to reply to our second letter(recommended) & bill for the water.

Can we also just say thanks to all those who have posted positive ideas and thoughts on my original post. I have to say I was surprised by some of the negative comments but I guess the tiny minority have the right to comment as well.

Happy Xmas to ALL

Steve

[PaulT]

[quote user="Baz"]

'in the UK .... water is free

Baz

[/quote]

Baz

Cannot agree with you on this. some people have a metered supply so pay for what you use. Others have an annual bill. The overall charge will relect the total water usage which would mean that bills would rise if more water is being used. Your view is one of the reasons that there is a push for all metered supplies so that people conserve more so that they get lower bills.

Paul

[Steve]

As an update to this thread ........

The PB has still not replied to our 2nd recommended letter sent in Nov 08 and so we went to the Tribunal d'Instance in Saintes, explained the situation & showed them copies of the letters we had sent to the PB. They gave us some forms to fill in and explained what will happen. In around 4 weeks time both the PB and ourselves will receive recommended letters stating the claim and details of the claim as per the forms we filled in. Both parties will be given a date to attend the Tribunal d'Instance where a judge will hear both arguments & read all relevant documents etc.

Both parties then depart and the judge forms a decision which is relayed to both parties by post after a further 4 weeks. Both parties should accept this decision.

 If it goes in our favour then the letters to both parties will also describe how payment should be made. If the decision goes against us then we would accept this and that would be that. Our understanding is that there are no costs attached to this process.

Its a small claims court which I believe handles claims under 4,000€

[Chancer]

Bonne Chance.

[BIG MAC]

The builder told you two hours which would seem to imply minimal if any draining but in any case he should sustain all costs incurred in remedying the installation by his chosen method. If it hadn't worked he would be liable for the screw up as he had specified the works.

He was a W******r approved installer and they have seen fit to get involved if only to muddy the waters (Pardon the pun) Now the company have struck the builder off they think this is a testament to their management? I would venture that what it actually means is they mave not managed this situation well and seek to hide behind their ropey installer, who they recommended and approved of at the time. W******r it would seem to have came up with an alternative method of working and asked the builder to comply with it which he has (No doubt carrying a higher prime cost to himself in doing so if he went beyond 2 hrs)

I look at this from the point of view aim at those with the deepest pockets and for those who would be hurt the most by an action ...in every case that is W******r not the Builder. I would write my registered letter to them pointing out that as they themselves have seen fit to get rid of the guy they had formerly  recommended to you you have every right to expect them to provide you with an ongoing guarantee and full recompense. If they choose subsequently to chase the builder for their costs not your problem.

The above is very unsympathetic to the pool company I know as they will likely argue they could not prevent the builders wrong installation yada yada yada. The could however have supervised their remedial course of works and demonstrated some tangible commitment to you as a customer they look as though they are being slippery.