hunting - then integration?

[WJT]

[quote user="odile"]what a fantastic picture WJT - and again I am so grateful for your kind and supportive comments.
It is true that mocking and insulting people who put forward ideas you do not either understand, or understand only too well, or NOT want to know about - is a lot easier. I wonder how many people have ever seen badger cubs at play? magical.
[/quote]

Odile, I have never seen badger cubs at play but I used to see adults quite regularly when I lived in the UK countryside. They were very funny to watch because they seemed to waddle when they walked. This happened mostly on our drive when we would arrive home in the night and see them in our headlights waddling away.

BBC had an excellent documentary on them over a few episodes last winter and touched on how they have so wrongly been persecuted over the years. They showed rare footage of a sett in their burrow(?) that they followed over time and it was fascinating. On one Guy Fawkes night a family was huddled together in the hole with all of the loud fireworks in the background and one little youngster was in the forefront standing with it's paws covering his eyes in fear, it was adorable.

I know this is off subject, but, I say so what,  it's not like the majority of threads don't go off subject anyway. [:)]

Katie you are right,  Jaqui did respond to the original question but I have to say she responded from her point of view only. I do agree with most of it, however, the sentiment of not dissing someones lifestyle I find hard to accept in this instance. As I have mentioned here before, I could care less what people get up to in their private lives if it involves consenting adults BUT when it involves inflicting pain on animals for pleasure, sorry, but that is and should be unacceptable in this day and age and I say we should all dis away.

By the way Catalpa, I agree with everything you said in your very intelligent response. I am one that gets very upset and even have images haunt me that I have seen. I know full well that the only way to encourage change is with a reasoned, measured response. However, unfortunately, my emotions do take over at times and it is hard for my little brain to accept the fact that people that enjoy hurting animals for fun deserve this from me.  

I tried to stay out of this thread completely because I have made my feelings more than clear on these subjects in the past on the forum but couldn't stay away and felt the need to jump in to show a little support for Odile. [:)]

[Just Katie]

 

WJT WROTE

"Katie you are right,  Jaqui did respond to the original question but I have to say she responded from her point of view only. I do agree with most of it, however, the sentiment of not dissing someones lifestyle I find hard to accept in this instance"

 

Sorry for sounding a bit dim here but Jacqui gave three options that the OP could adopt

 

"1) Broadcast your opposing views and take the flack and never 'integrate'. 2) Accept that you wish to live there and shut up! 3) Don't move there in the first place, peace of mind and fitting in are more important."

 

Is your point of view included in there WJT?  I know that mine is.

[WJT]

 

JUST KATIE WROTE

 

WJT Quote" "Katie you are right,  Jaqui did respond to the original question but I have to say she responded from her point of view only. I do agree with most of it, however, the sentiment of not dissing someones lifestyle I find hard to accept in this instance" Quote

 

Sorry for sounding a bit dim here but Jacqui gave three options that the OP could adopt

 

"1) Broadcast your opposing views and take the flack and never 'integrate'. 2) Accept that you wish to live there and shut up! 3) Don't move there in the first place, peace of mind and fitting in are more important."

 

Is your point of view included in there WJT?  I know that mine is.

 

Hi Katie, no mine isn't there. I don't think it necessary that some people feel that if a wrong is taking place they must go along with the few and just keep their head down. I would never call that integration and that would be the case no matter where I lived in this world. I guess I'm  lucky in that regard because France happens to be one of the free countries. [:)]

[odile]

my English may not be perfect- point taken. I  would however maintain that anybody who counters a point of view by using the words 'utter rubbish, absurd, stupid, ranking, ridiculous, lunatic'  and 'badger sausages' is certainly using a form of bullying.  In any public debate, this would have been made clear by the Chair and should have been reminded by the moderator. Keeping quiet in order to preserve one's comfortable lifestyle has caused great suffering to children and other humans in the past, and sadly, still does. The fact that we are talking about mere animals (and you don;t have to remind me there is a huge difference) is not a really valid excuse. I think we will stop here - flogging a dead horse sounds a bit too cruel- and as you say serves no purpose. I am fully aware that some grudge lies way back to a few weeks ago and my first post about the use of mothertongue in a foreign country.

[Just Katie]

[quote user="WJT"]

 

 

 I don't think it necessary that some people feel that if a wrong is taking place they must go along with the few and just keep their head down. [/quote]

Neither do I.  That is why I get myself into so much trouble.

[WJT]

Well then, come over to our side, it sounds like we have a lot in common and could be good pals. Think of all the trouble we could make.  [:D]

[Just Katie]

[quote user="WJT"]Well then, come over to our side, it sounds like we have a lot in common and could be good pals. Think of all the trouble we could make.  [:D][/quote]

Thank you WJT [:)].  Don't get me wrong, I love animals, well dogs dolphins and elephants mostly oh, and gorillas, but I eat meat and wear leather. 

When I was 15, I was a little punky thing that got into all this kind of stuff.  In those days I banged a big drum to free the smoking beagles and still hate cruelty to animals and would happily spade a badger baitor. However, I would be a hypocrite if I said I did not enjoy the bbq'd sanglier I ate during the last season. 

Yes, I know "this beast was shot in the field and what if the bullet missed and caused unnessary suffering" but I agree with Russethouse posting in that it seems more humane that an animal such as this can live freely.  I would NEVER eat veal by the way.

So there you have it WJT, I do not think I could whole heartedly serve your cause as I have chosen where to draw my line on the use of animals.

By the way, you are very sweet to say we have alot in common.  I don't think many people would readily put their hands uup to that.[:)]

[Just Katie]

[quote user="odile"]how difficult is it to 'integrate' into rural France if you hate hunting? Anecdotes, advice, opinions
[/quote]

Why are you asking this Odile?  I thought you were originally from the Jura mountains which are rural, arent they?

[WJT]

Katie, I do feel a bit of a fraud here because I am no activist and never have been (only in my mind [:-))]). I do give to all sorts of charities including ones that help animals. I am not a vegetarian, I do eat fish and poultry but only poultry that I know is free range. I have only been doing this since the foot and mouth fiasco in the UK that opened my eyes a little about intensive farming.

Unfortunately, I am so involved with our own issues and problems with renovations, toing and froing etc.. I am not active in anything other than as I said with giving donations and giving a bit of lip here and there. [:$]

In regards to hunting or even those that actually have to slaughter animals in a humane way to feed their children, I have no issue with. But what I can't and never will be able to get my head around are those that take pleasure in killing and particularly those that take pleasure in inflicting pain on a living creature and of course intensive farming practises. [:'(]

As far as the something in common bit, I just hope I didn't insult you because I would probably beat you in the not too many people putting their hands up stakes. [:)]

[Just Katie]

Wow, I am really surprised by you WJT.  People will be calling us sockpuppets next [:-))]  We actually do have very similar views. 

I often keep off the animal threads soley because people draw their lines in different places and I personally think they often get too heated and sometimes very silly where I feel I could get blown to pieces for squishing a caterpillar.[:(]

 

[Panda]

[quote user="odile"]my English may not be perfect- point taken. I  would however maintain that anybody who counters a point of view by using the words 'utter rubbish, absurd, stupid, ranking, ridiculous, lunatic'  and 'badger sausages' is certainly using a form of bullying.  In any public debate, this would have been made clear by the Chair and should have been reminded by the moderator. Keeping quiet in order to preserve one's comfortable lifestyle has caused great suffering to children and other humans in the past, and sadly, still does. The fact that we are talking about mere animals (and you don;t have to remind me there is a huge difference) is not a really valid excuse. I think we will stop here - flogging a dead horse sounds a bit too cruel- and as you say serves no purpose. I am fully aware that some grudge lies way back to a few weeks ago and my first post about the use of mothertongue in a foreign country.
[/quote]

It's just not getting through is it Odile, to coin a phrase 'you are not the only animal welfarist in the village!'  So stop with your 'mere animals and keeping quiet nonsense.  Please read carefully 'I will say zis only once'

Most regulars posters on here are very pro animal welfare, most of us have a menagerie of rescued animals , most of us hate hunting and spend many a post talking about keeping it off our land.  You are preaching to the converted, it is insulting in the extreme to have it suggested that we are anything else which you have done with every post! 

and lastly ....................I LOVE BADGERS

[WJT]

[quote user="Just Katie"]

Wow, I am really surprised by you WJT.  People will be calling us sockpuppets next [:-))]  We actually do have very similar views. 

I often keep off the animal threads soley because people draw their lines in different places and I personally think they often get too heated and sometimes very silly where I feel I could get blown to pieces for squishing a caterpillar.[:(]

 

[/quote]

That could be where we differ, I would never blow you to pieces but I would never squash a caterpillar either. [:)]

[odile]

Katie - when we considered moving abroad a few years ago, it was a big issue for us. I had recently lent our house in UK to  French friends from Pyreenees, and they described to us how awful their lives is during the autumn, as they can hardly walk anywhere due to the hunting. a while later we visited Tuscany in late September, instead of June as usual, and we were plagued with constant shooting and dog barking. Then Swiss friends moved out of the Alps for the same reason- as they could hardly go out with their dogs without being threatened, and surrounded by shooting and dogs barking constantly. We were lucky to visit Spain as well the same year a bit later, and ditto. I recently read a thread from another poster on another forum who is extremely surprised that there are so few birds on ponds in Poitou/. And of course last year I became aware for the first time that a badger digging competition was being organised in Cluny, and that another had taken place in Allier the previous year. A few years ago we were on hols in the Landes, and became aware of how strong the bird hunting lobby is there, as mass illegal shootings took place in protest agains the hunt dates being moved back. As explained, we didn;t move to a East Leics village because of real and verifiable trouble friends who live there were having. By the way those of us who got slashed tyres were just on a walk- but happened to have 'badger trust' stickers on their cars- a printer, 1 consultant oncologist, 2 senior lecturers, 2 teachers, a GP and 2 little girls. Right bunch of rabble! So we became very aware that many parts of the world would be uncomfortable to live in for above reasons. We do not want to spend retirement in conflict with neighbours, witness barbarity or be plagued by constant shooting and dogs barking. We therefore realised we had to think very carefully about where we would go and live. Our choice, my native part of the Jura mountains, on the Swiss side, does not seem to be an area where the hunting lobby is very powerful or vociferous, hence our choice. My initial question was to ascertain whether British people who dream of moving to France are AWARE that this MAY be a problem for SOME of them. There are many posters here and other forum who complain about dog barking, hunter behaviour, lack of birds, etc - and I did wonder how many realised that these may be an issue when living in France. I feel people should be aware of this before making their decision (as well as thinking about schools, language, health, etc). The forum guidelines DO ask posters not to use rude language as described above- using such language IS verbal bullying.

Panda, phewwww. thank goodness for that. Merci pour eux- en tout cas les blaireaux ne sont pas les blaireaux dans cette histoire.

[Panda]

Hi Odile

I really do know what you mean, I lost a young goat to the hunting dogs last year, this was a chance crossing of my land by two dosey looking huge hunting dogs, I saw them, got them to water even petted them (I won't make that mistake again).  They then went off or so I thought, minutes later there were in with my goats and had killed one, it was awful and I was very upset.  I have to say though the huntsmen were mortified and came to express their apologies and do what ever I wanted them to do.  I now stand on my boundary if there is hunting nearby and glare a lot, no one comes anywhere near.  there is the odd gun shot but mainly they look like they are just having a day out, I have never actually seen them kill anything.  My land is marked throughout with no hunting signs as are the properties on three sides of mine, I am told by the locals that the youngsters in these parts have no interest in hunting and it's only the die-hard oldies that carry on this tradition.  I would tend to believe that as I only see old men taking part around here.

So I am integrated as my three neighbours all agree with the no hunting thing, I have never experienced any threats so can't comment on that.

I have around 20 acres of woodland and see deer regularly, perhaps they know they are safe on my land! I also have just about every species of bird possible in these parts, in abundance, I saw a wonderful kingfisher on my lake yesterday and a turtle sun bathing.  I have around 30 wild ducks who sit happily on the lake in the hunting season, all in all it's a wildlife paradise, no shortage although sadly I've never seen a badger here.

Panda

[odile]

hope you do one day - May is usually the best time to watch cubs at play - haven;t seen any either for a couple of years as lamping makes going out at night too dangerous around here. Bonne chance avec les blaireautins. Trop'gnon!

[denverd0n]

"But what I can't and never will be able to get my head around are those that take pleasure in killing"

I have known hundreds of hunters over my lifetime.  I grew up in America in an area where hunting is extremely common.  I always hear about people like this.  I've never actually met them.  The only place I ever seem to come across them is in comments and writings by those who are anti-hunting.

The hunters that I've known (yes, that includes myself) enjoy the challenge, enjoy the outdoors, enjoy getting back to nature and a more natural way of filling the pot, and most especially enjoy filling the freezer with fresh, wild game meat for little more expense than a pleasant walk in the woods.  And, yes, sometimes even enjoy keeping some other memento of the hunt--a skin, or antlers, or some such.  But enjoy the killing?  Nope.  Not a bit.  Not even close.

I don't doubt that there are people out there who call themselves "hunters" and who do enjoy the killing.  I suppose there must be.  Otherwise, why would I hear about them so much?  I just don't know where they all are, or where they're doing their hunting.  I've never ever met even one, despite having personally known--quite literally--hundreds of hunters in my life.

And therein, I believe, lies the problem.  You see the extremes (the less-than-one-percenters) and assume that they represent most, if not all, hunters.  I can assure you that the great majority of people who hunt are at least as respectful of animals, and care at least as much about their welfare, as any anti-hunter who ever lived.   Indeed, worldwide, it is hunters--more than any other group--who spend the most money on habitat preservation and species protection.

As to the original question...  Oh, wait, that's right. The original question wasn't really a question at all.  That much, at least, is quite obvious.  It was merely a preamble for a personal anti-hunting rant.  "How difficult is it to integrate?"  Please Odile!  You quite clearly have no desire, nor intention, of ever integrating into any community where hunting is common.  If you move to such an area you will deliberately berate and harass your neighbors who hunt, stereotyping them just as you have repeatedly stereotyped hunters here, and probably revel in being the outcast anti-hunter, imagining that somehow you have gained the moral high-ground.

Ah well.  You've had your soapbox and now I've had mine.  It is almost hunting season, and I will sleep happy, peaceful, and with a completely clear conscience if I am able to fill the freezer with game meat this fall.  À Dieu.

[odile]

DEnverDon - pl;ease read the full thread first. I stated clearly that I have deliberately chosen to live in areas where hunting is not common, so I wouldn;t be in conflict with neighbours who hunt. Have you ever lied in France? I think the hunting scene in many areas of France is quite different to Colorado. (By the way we have friends who live near Winter Park, so we know the area well. How sad to see the forest trees dying- I so hope a solution is found).

I do know many people who live in rural areas in the South West of France, who do find it difficult to share the countryside with hunters- as they are confined to stay at home for the whole of the hunting season and can't exercise their dogs. For ME it would be difficult to do this- and wondered if it is a problem for SOME British posters who moved there.

[odile]

sorry, typing error    not  lied   but  lived

[odile]

SEASON STARTING - BE CAREFUL AND BONNE CHANCE

[Bugsy]

[quote user="denverd0n"]
The hunters that I've known (yes, that includes myself) enjoy the challenge, ..............................................


[/quote]

What challenge is that exactly, not stalking surely!

The "challenge" I'd like to see is the one where the animal also has a high-powered rifle and very good eyesight.

The deers little house with all the walls decorated with the heads of hunters, now that would be worth seeing.

[mint]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="denverd0n"]
The hunters that I've known (yes, that includes myself) enjoy the challenge, ..............................................


[/quote]

What challenge is that exactly, not stalking surely!

The "challenge" I'd like to see is the one where the animal also has a high-powered rifle and very good eyesight.

The deers little house with all the walls decorated with the heads of hunters, now that would be worth seeing.

[/quote]

Bugsy, yes, I would like to see the deer's houses as well!

Only problem is humans do not have magnificent antlers that could serve as coat- and hat-hangers so perhaps their walls wouldn't look half so decorated.

[odile]

in hotel brochures they call it 'mamalian memorabilia'    yuk-    Yes your version bugbear sounds alomost more appealing! Well, yuk too.

But this thread is not about scoring points, but about the terrible demise of thousands of birds and beasts - often without any discrimination or restraint- for the sheer sake of it (rather than for food) - and the misery it causes humans who have to live nearby or witness the carnage. shooting everything that flies, moves or slithers is not hunting- it is sheer carnage. Thrushes, lapwings, the lot.

[Christine Animal]

http://www.antichasse.com/mailings_new/proteger.htm   [6]

 

[odile]

it sums it up really. In the UK they then complain there are too many rabbits - when they kill the only predators! Balancing the eco-system?

[Russethouse]

Which 'only predator' is that ?

From http://www.ypte.org.uk/animal/rabbit/162

"Apart from man, rabbits' predators include foxes, badgers, stoats, weasels, buzzards and cats."