bixy Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I hope someone can answer something that's been puzzling me for sometime. As I understand it on the death of a person the major part of his/her estate is divided between his/her children. But if this person is part of a couple, how do you decide what constitutes his/her estate, when everything is shared between the couple - house, money, property etc.?Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote user="bixy"]I hope someone can answer something that's been puzzling me for sometime. As I understand it on the death of a person the major part of his/her estate is divided between his/her children. But if this person is part of a couple, how do you decide what constitutes his/her estate, when everything is shared between the couple - house, money, property etc.?[/quote]The marriage regime determines what constitutes the estate, and would IIRC in most cases default to a half share in everything that was not in only one name.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote user="bixy"]I hope someone can answer something that's been puzzling me for sometime. As I understand it on the death of a person the major part of his/her estate is divided between his/her children. But if this person is part of a couple, how do you decide what constitutes his/her estate, when everything is shared between the couple - house, money, property etc.?Patrick[/quote]Hi, If the deceased was french resident, it depends on their marriage regime. UK couples, who do not adopt a french regime, are considered to be under the french regime of "separation des biens", this means that anything in their sole name is 100% theirs, and anything in joint names is considered as 50/50 in full title, ( not as in the UK "in joint tenancy", and automatically passing to the other joint holder) . Where there are no children from previous relationships , a couple can change (under the terms of the "Hague Convention" on marriage property rights), to the french regime of "Communauté universelle " with a clause of " Attribution integrale" which means the survivor inherits everything in full title. Where there are children from a previous relationship this can only be reliably done with the agreement of those children by way of a "pacte familliale" including a " legs residuel". For details you should discuss this with a good english-fluent notaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 That's very helpful. A supplementary question if I may. Where a house is owned en tontine, what happens to the rights of the surviving spouse when that house is sold? Is he/she able to do what he/she wishes with the proceeds of the sale?Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 [quote user="bixy"]That's very helpful. A supplementary question if I may. Where a house is owned en tontine, what happens to the rights of the surviving spouse when that house is sold? Is he/she able to do what he/she wishes with the proceeds of the sale?Patrick[/quote]Hi, When a house is purchased in tontine, there is a sort of legal fiction that neither of the purchasers (usually a couple) own any part of it until one dies, when the house is considered to have been 100% theirs all the time. The survivor can then , as full owner, do what they like , and if they sell they can keep the money. If the survivor has children then they will inherit whatever remains of the estate at the survivor's death. However, if the 1st deceased had children from a previous relationship they lose all rights to the house;french children disinherited in this way sometimes take court action to try to prove that the tontine was not legitimate, either because the deceased was much older than the survivor, or because they can prove that the deceased contributed most or all of the purchase price; the key to the argument is that the tontine must have a rough equivilence of risk. It is unlikely that british children would be aware or capable enough to take such action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Helpful once again. Many thanks.Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Coeur de Lion Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 This is quite interesting as I'm reading a book that goes back to the 15th century and speaks of these inheritance laws. I can see the logic in them back in those days, but they make little sense in the modern world to me. Should be up to the individual as to what happens to his/her estate, not anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairyNuff Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 [quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]Should be up to the individual as to what happens to his/her estate, not anyone else.[/quote]I couldn't agree more!FairyNuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 But many people do not make wills, many mean to OR they think that they will 'die' if they do............ like they will never ever die if they don't?Many people should know better and are simply stupid and negligent in getting their affairs in order.My wish would be that the system was sort of half /half french uk, that the kids are protected but that the surviving spouse could do as they pleased until their demise. ie If I die first, my husband will get everything, if he remarries or makes a new will our kids could get nothing. I do not like the idea that some future Mrs Idun gets all and my kids get nothing. We have looked into it all and it is hard to 'protect' what the kids get once a person is a goner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debbie Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Suggestion: establish the property under an SCI: Societe Civile Immobiliere (SCI): is a French civil company set up to hold property and is a fully incorporated company registered in France whose head office can be the company itself; it is owned by shareholders. The main advantage of an SCI is that it protects unmarried couples who buy property together but can also help protect children to secure their portion of the property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 [quote user="idun"]But many people do not make wills, many mean to OR they think that they will 'die' if they do............ like they will never ever die if they don't?Many people should know better and are simply stupid and negligent in getting their affairs in order.My wish would be that the system was sort of half /half french uk, that the kids are protected but that the surviving spouse could do as they pleased until their demise. ie If I die first, my husband will get everything, if he remarries or makes a new will our kids could get nothing. I do not like the idea that some future Mrs Idun gets all and my kids get nothing. We have looked into it all and it is hard to 'protect' what the kids get once a person is a goner.[/quote]Hi, Nothing is simpler than to get what you want (provided there are no children from previous relationships), you can make reciprocal "donations entre époux", which on the death of one spouse give the other several options as to how to take the deceased's estate, including all in life interest with eventual reversion of title to the children*. This is what would have to be done in the UK if complete protection was wanted for children--in UK most couples have so-called "mirror wills", where the survivor takes all; there is no constraint on the survivor to leave anything to the couples children, and in the case of remarriage they might well be disinherited there.*If you are in a UK marriage and have bought your french house in indivision then you will normally already be outright owner of 1/2 of the joint estate--the only exception being assets owned in your spouses sole name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 parsnips, I do understand how both systems work and until the last law changed it all, it was really really unfair in France, IMO bien sur. And having no protection for one's kids in the UK is very very unfair, IMO naturally.I want my kids/our kids, to have what is left of what is left when Mr Idun goes. Not anyone else or their family, and I don't think that my kids should get anything from someone else's family either, that would be veryvery unfair too.A good friend of mine in the UK's mother was widowed, not old, in her fifties and a couple of years later she remarried and died within a very short time. She had owned a house, not made a will,and he got everything. In a strange turn of events he died within months (as he was not old either) and my friend and her siblings found their family things in charity shops and even local antiques dealers in the town in which they lived. The step father's family had told them to get lost, only not quite so politely and that all was theirs.AND lo and behold, my MIL did a very similar thing to us, at least his family grudgingly let us have a few bits and pieces, but not much. I used to get on well with her, but with one son, I'll never forgive her for not getting her affairs in order, trouble is ofcourse that it is not very easy to do so with step kids, unless the new spouse is a very good and fair person.AND how many stories do you want, I know of in France, for I could write about many about the dispicable behaviour by kids towards the parent who had not died when their spouse had.So I will disagree, nothing is simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Coeur de Lion Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 [quote user="idun"]But many people do not make wills, many mean to OR they think that they will 'die' if they do............ like they will never ever die if they don't?Many people should know better and are simply stupid and negligent in getting their affairs in order.My wish would be that the system was sort of half /half french uk, that the kids are protected but that the surviving spouse could do as they pleased until their demise. ie If I die first, my husband will get everything, if he remarries or makes a new will our kids could get nothing. I do not like the idea that some future Mrs Idun gets all and my kids get nothing. We have looked into it all and it is hard to 'protect' what the kids get once a person is a goner.[/quote]But many people do make wills, and if they do, those wills should be respected. They made the money, it's up to the individual to decide where that money goes once they've died. Even if it's not to their kids.If people don't make a will, then fair enough, the law decides. But for those that have, that should be honoured first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Hi idun, I meant relatively simple, but I can see you have had , and known of, unfortunate experiences with successions (mostly in the UK, by what you have posted). I say again , if you are married under UK law and only have children from your relationship, with whom you get on , then a "donation entre époux" means that the survivor gets the deceased's estate (including their half of the house) either partly in full title with the balance in life interest, or all in life interest. You can specify that any money or investments pass in a "quasi-usufruit" which means in effect that the survivor can do what they wish with them, but the children get what's left at the survivor's death. Obviously you should discuss all these matters with a good english-fluent notaire. If you are married ,as above, but with children from other relationships , then the same "donation" will protect the survivor in the same way , but at the end of his/her life interest the children will only inherit the assets of their natural parent. This seems to me to meet what you were wishing for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Parsnips, many thanks for info!!We are seeing our english speaking notaire next week and what you have just written will really help us. We were married under UK law ,however, our son was born in France, does this make any difference?Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 [quote user="Sara"]Parsnips, many thanks for info!!We are seeing our english speaking notaire next week and what you have just written will really help us. We were married under UK law ,however, our son was born in France, does this make any difference?Sarah[/quote]Hi, Your son's birth place makes no difference. If you expect to be french resident for 10 years or more, you should ask the notaire whether you need to make a notarised "declaration" to remain in your UK marriage regime (assuming that is what you want), as under the Hague convention , you may default to the french "legal" regime after 10 years. (For an average couple, this would probably make no great difference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 If you have property it will state which marriage regime they have you under, which may not reflect the reality of your situation.Get your house papers out and look. Doesn't matter where your children are born if you live in France and if either of you have had children before, the french authorities will want to know when one of you goes, so that they can get the offspring can get their dues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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