Buying a house - declaration des travaux for past works missing!

[eternal optimist]

We've found a LOVELY house and are in the final throws of hammering out the compromis but suddenly it has been revealed that despite several extensions (over 15 years ago) a load of other work, and a POOL (!!!) the vendors do not have all the permission paperwork. Some of the permissions have been granted but the declaration of completion of works was never filed so there are no certificates of conformity. The pool (over 20m2) seems to have no permissions at all (8 years old). I dont know what to do! Is this relatively usual? I know that in the UK you just cannot sell a house with any alterations without proper planning paperwork - I get the impression things are a bit more 'relaxed' in France...What are the REAL implications for us as buyers - I know what the various technical effects are but does anyone EVER enforce these? The notaire seems pretty unbothered - we even have legal help in the UK, and they seem pretty chilled... SOOOOO confused. All help, advice and views would be VERY welcome. Thanks

[betty]

My advice would be not to buy until all of the missing permits etc. are granted and paid for. You may want to sell one day, what will your buyer say?

The notaire is probably not concerned because his fee is at stake.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

You absolutely must get all the paperwork sorted out, and do not rely on anyone's assurances. As Betty has said, for your own peace of mind, insurance and in case you might want to sell in the future.

In my experience, the French authorities are not lenient. In a recent case, clients wanted to buy an agricultural going-concern, which included a two-storey house on the land, built some 15 years ago. My suspicions were aroused when I found it was not shown on the cadastral plan, while the owner insisted that he had the right as a 'farmer' to erect a dwelling on his land, and the Mairies 'knew all about it'.

Indeed they did.  My own enquiries at the Mairie produced a different response, one official saying to me 'Yes, we know about it, it is illegal, built without a permit and is within a 'zone rouges' (risk of flooding, no building allowed). It could be orderd to be pulled down at any time and the decision would not be ours but that of the Prefecture'.

My clients walked away from the deal and bought elsewhere, and I would advise the same to you if there is the slightest doubt about your proposed property purchase. Note that - as in the case above - Notaires (and dare I add, English legal advisers) work primarily from the cadastral plan and documents from the vendor, the Mairie etc. There is no substitute for investigating on the ground.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but after ten years in the French property business I have learnt to take nothing on trust.

[eternal optimist]

Thank you for those replies - we are digging deeper and making our own enquiries.

So if the building IS on the cadastral, then some kind of permission and approval must have been got for it? I am so confused - there seems to be a total absence of paperwork yet the cadastral plan shows all the extensions and outbuildings (barring one dodgy shed). The pool does not feature on the cadastral - but it is nearly 10 years old - would we be able to apply for retrospective approval for it?

[PaulT]

[quote user="eternal optimist"]The pool does not feature on the cadastral - but it is nearly 10 years old - would we be able to apply for retrospective approval for it?[/quote]

I would have thought that the onus on TRYING to obtain retrospective approval would be on the sellers and not yours - buy and it is then refused you are lumbered.

Also, does the cadastral plan only show what should legally being there or what is actually there whether approved or not.

[andyh4]

Be aware that the cadestral will show buildings but will not show what type of building.  So for example the very nice stone extension on the house may show on the plan cadestral - but as far as the cadestral is concerned this is a stable.

 

So please take the advice and ensure that the sellers get this sorted before you buy - other wise the eternal optimist may have a bit of the shine taken off.

[NormanH]

I had a very much milder version of this about 12 years ago when I  was buying a house part of which had an extension which had been built about 25 years before, but for which the permission wasn't clear.

I insisted that the Notaire got an assurance from the Marie that they wouldn't insist on it being demolished.

I believe after 30 years it's ok but that is just received wisdom and  I am not sure.

As P-D says trust no one...