Energy surveys!

[maude]

As the new law re marketing the house Jan2011 requires an energy survey,does anyone have an aprox.cost for say120m2 house ancienne,insert foyer.?just fishing ideas around at the moment so dont want to spend yet more money than is necessary.thanks for any guidance. Maude

[Mikep]

We had a full set of "diagnostiques" done last September prior to putting our chalet on the market (energy, asbestos, natural and technological risks) for 365 euros. Electricity survey wasn't necessary as the property was less than 15 years old.We are 185 sq metres.

[mint]

That sounds a bit of a bargain to me, Mikep.  Some people we knew paid 500 euros and another couple paid 600 euros and neither house was as big as yours.

[Lizfjr]

Sounds about right to me. We paid 411 including electricity for 150 sq M

[frexpt]

We had the full set (except lead) done at the beginning of November for 396 euros.  "Surface au sol totale" was 172.15 sq m, "Surface Habitable totale" 163.55 sq m.

[idun]

Shop around, I had loads of quotes for the surveys we needed doing a couple of years ago and they varied by 100's of euros. I would have liked to use the bloke in my village, but he was just too dear.

[frexpt]

[quote user="idun"]Shop around, I had loads of quotes for the surveys we needed doing a couple of years ago and they varied by 100's of euros. I would have liked to use the bloke in my village, but he was just too dear.[/quote]

I fully agree, prices vary greatly.  The immediately local firm was not as competitive as the chap we finally used, but he was within 20 kms, so still a fairly local job for him.  Furthermore, the latter promised to send us the full report, by email, within 24 hours, which he did.

[bubbles]

Can anyone explain what difference there is in the new requirements please?

Is it just that you need the energy test as soon as you put the house on the market, not after you have found a buyer?

We had a full set of diagnostic tests done in September when we thought we had a buyer (long story).

Hope that means we have done all that is required.

[crossy67]

You need it for marketing your house so prospective buyers can see how much your house will cost to run.

[mint]

[quote user="bubbles"]Can anyone explain what difference there is in the new requirements please? Is it just that you need the energy test as soon as you put the house on the market, not after you have found a buyer? We had a full set of diagnostic tests done in September when we thought we had a buyer (long story). Hope that means we have done all that is required.[/quote]

Bubbles, you need to be careful as some of the tests are only good for 6 months!

Boiling a Frog posted this site in the past:

http://www.expert-diagnostic.fr/diagnostics-obligatoires.php

I hope it helps!

[frexpt]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Bubbles, you need to be careful as some of the tests are only good for 6 months!

[/quote]

The chap who did ours pointed out that the termite report was the most time limited, but he would come back and "top up" the report at no further cost, if we had not sold within that period.  The way things are just now, I imagine he might become part of the furnitiure eventually![:)]

[mint]

I thought you'd sold, frexpt!  If not, may I wish you all the best with your sale.  It's tough these days whether you are a buyer or a seller or, as in most cases, both![:)]

[Judith]

[quote user="crossy67"]You need it for marketing your house so prospective buyers can see how much your house will cost to run.

[/quote]

Surely, like many other things, this should also be "buyer beware"?

Don't know about anybody else on here, but I think most of us can get a good idea of how difficult the house will be to heat (etc) simply by knowing the construction material and the layout.  If not new build, or newly renovated to good insulation standards, most houses will cost an arm and a leg to keep warm in the winter- it's just the way it is.  Conversely, of course, they will stay much cooler in the summer.  You pays your money and you takes your choice!

And I must admit, I could have done without this - we have just put our "old" house on the market, having finally almost moved out, and it is obvious to all but the most stupid that as an "old" village house, with woodburners (which make a huge difference) there is no way it can have modern energy saving possibilites - but for all that it is not that bad at its energy efficiency - even last winter (which most of you will remember was very cold) the woodburners did an amazing job, even if we did go through about twice the normal volume of wood .... and we survived extremely well. 

Bit namby pamby if you ask me - like the HIPs in the UK which did very little to help sales. ......

-

[frexpt]

[quote user="sweet 17"]I thought you'd sold, frexpt!  If not, may I wish you all the best with your sale.  It's tough these days whether you are a buyer or a seller or, as in most cases, both![:)][/quote]

Not yet!  A couple of offers from local families, but dependent on their own sales, a "yes - no" couple from Paris (hence the diagnostiques) and sundry other viewings.......such is the market at the moment.....!

[frexpt]

[quote user="Judith"][quote user="crossy67"]You need it for marketing your house so prospective buyers can see how much your house will cost to run.
[/quote]
Surely, like many other things, this should also be "buyer beware"?

Don't know about anybody else on here, but I think most of us can get a good idea of how difficult the house will be to heat (etc) simply by knowing the construction material and the layout.  If not new build, or newly renovated to good insulation standards, most houses will cost an arm and a leg to keep warm in the winter- it's just the way it is.  Conversely, of course, they will stay much cooler in the summer.  You pays your money and you takes your choice!

And I must admit, I could have done without this - we have just put our "old" house on the market, having finally almost moved out, and it is obvious to all but the most stupid that as an "old" village house, with woodburners (which make a huge difference) there is no way it can have modern energy saving possibilites - but for all that it is not that bad at its energy efficiency - even last winter (which most of you will remember was very cold) the woodburners did an amazing job, even if we did go through about twice the normal volume of wood .... and we survived extremely well. 

Bit namby pamby if you ask me - like the HIPs in the UK which did very little to help sales. ......


[/quote]

I don't think the diagnostique reports will make one iota of difference in a country where a large percentage of buyers can't be bothered to instruct a survey to establish whether a property is likely to fall down in the near future. 

We have experienced these in the UK with the now-defunct HIP in England & Wales and the pre-sale pack introduced more latterly in Scotland.  We have been involved in buying and selling and the letting of property for many years (this is our pension) and all that matters to most purchasers (tenants) is where the property is and how much will it cost to buy/rent.

For the energy report, the vast majority of older properties are going to fall within catagory D or even E.  A few newer properties may climb as high as B, but at the end of the day, if someone has set their heart on a traditional French farmhouse, they ain't going to buy a pavillon box because the energy report is more attractive..............[;-)]

[woolybanana]

It is extremely doubtful whether the methods applied by the energy efficiency surveys can assess some of the very old houses as their concept of heating, insulation and warmth was so different. For example, many old farm houses kept their winter stocks in the loft which provided huge insulation but this does not happen these days, so how to assess their potential? Or, the whole house was not necessarily used in winter, so how to assess this?

And how do you measure the efficiency of walls that are two feet thick and composed of heat retaining stone?

[frexpt]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

And how do you measure the efficiency of walls that are two feet thick and composed of heat retaining stone?

[/quote]

The reports are created by software which makes general assumptions about the efficiency of various constructiion methods and materials, coupled with the age of the property.  They are at best a generalisation. 

The software is certainly not infallible, as we found in Scotland when our surveyor contacted us to say that he couldn't produce energy certficates for two flats we were looking to let.  One was 100 years old, the other less than 10, but in each case, they had rooms which were over archways, with a loft space above.  The software was not able to cope with the fact that part of the properties had nothing above and nothing below, as by (the software's) definition, a flat must either have a property above it or below it.

The surveyor had to fudge the input to achieve any result, which sort of defeats the object of the exercise!  The system in the UK is riddled with other anomalies and I think its true value was refelcted by the speed that the HIP disappeared after the General Election this year.  The Sellers Pack in Scotland had been introduced much later than in England, so the feeling is that it will take a little longer for them to be withdrawn.

To me, the French reports look even more wishy-washy than the UK ones, in that they make no recommendation as to how energy efficiency can be improved.  That means that, in France, the energy report provides even less ammunition for a purchaser to use to argue against a selling price.

Where property is concerned, most purchasers are ruled by their heart rather than their head, so IMHO the new requirements will be seen, in time, to be largely irrelevant  to the decision making process. 

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I agree with much of what has already been said here, just adding the following comments:

1. From my enquiries locally there is no evidence that local agencies, some with several hundred properties on their books, will be able to include energy efficiency reports by the 01 January deadline - because of....

2. There are simply not enough trained 'experts' available to accomplish the task at such short notice, nor evidence they are facing any increase in demand for their services.  

3. Locally, 70% of properties are classified as second homes and were primarily intended for occasional/summer use. Clearly if someone decides to live here all year round, as increasing numbers are, some improvements to insulation etc may be called for. A much greater problem is the strain on plumbing and electrics, as whole apartment blocks from the 60s and 70s, are gradually equipped with washing machines, dishwashers, fridge-freezers, air conditioning etc.

4. Much of the energy efficiency report is advisory, with suggested annual savings (frequently minimal) set against estimated costs to put right - the latter often far exceeding the former!

I have asked FNAIM, the estate agents body, to comment on 1. and 2. for a longer article. They have so far stayed silent.

P-D de R.

 

[frexpt]

I think there is also confusion as to whether properties already on the market require an energy report or just those coming to the market after 1 January.  Our house is on the market with four agents, two French, one UK and one Dutch.  So far, only the UK agent has contacted us to say that we might require an energy report............speaks volumes!

[bubbles]

Our French agent (well, one of them) wrote to us to inform us of the new rule.

[mint]

I signed our compromis the day before I left for Spain for several weeks (3rd Sept) and we completed end of last month and yes, there was an energy report.

The report results surprised me somewhat because one of the things I made sure about the house was that it would be energy efficient and yet it only came out sort of mid-way on the scale.

[Dinks]

Does anybody know whether the full 'diagnostiques' (inc. DPE) are required for a property that is only being marketed privately? Or are the reports required for ALL property sold in France whether through an agent or not?

[frexpt]

My understanding is that the diagnostiques are required for any property being marketed, whether privately or through an agent.  A compromis cannot be signed until the purchaser has seen the diagnostique reports.  However, it appears that certain more modern properties are partially exempt. 

Our agents tell us that the new rules apply to properties which were already on the market, although looking at the various sales websites, there are still plenty of properties with no energy performance details quoted.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Dinks"]Does anybody know whether the full 'diagnostiques' (inc. DPE) are required for a property that is only being marketed privately? Or are the reports required for ALL property sold in France whether through an agent or not?
[/quote]

It is mandatory and it will pass through the hands of the Notaire at some stage. If you don't have one the Notaire will order you to get one or loose the sale, hand the deposit back and charge you for the privilege.

[Dinks]

Thanks people. We have already had the full package done on the house that we are selling but a friend is now selling theirs privately & didn't think they needed the reports doing. I thought otherwise!