Possible refund of 'social charges' on investment income for S1 holders

[Fittersmate]

Thank you Parsnips. Will get to work on wording for claim to tax office and look forward to hearing the outcome of the case at Poitiers.

[cajal]

Could I ask you to outline the 'mechanics' of claiming for the charges made on 2013 income, as paid in 2014.

I needed to visit our tax office with regards to a totally different issue (HMRC were being total jakasses regarding my annual R43 claim.)

Being aware of a possible ECJ ruling on social charges levied on savings income, the outcome of which would impact on British residents in possesion of a UK S1, I decideded to take a punt and ask the tax officer if  (a)  it would be posible to make a refund claim and (b) if it is at all possible, what is the procedure to make this claim?

She went away to take advice and on her return she told me that I should not be paying social charges on income generated by UK savings and investments, apart from dividend income, and that I could make a refund claim.

To enable me to follow up with this claim she told me to visit CPAM (2 minutes walk from the tax office) and have them issue a statement that I was/am in receipt of a UK issued S1, its' date of commencement and return it to the tax office and that she would deal with it on return from her Christmas break.

Six weeks later (9th of Feb)  my bank account was credited with all the social charges associated with my UK savings accounts.

As has been posted, over the years, an awful lot depends on the area/dept where you resde as to your relationship with the tax authorities, CPAM, Prefecture etc., etc,. etc.  I believe where we live we are rather fortunate when it comes to dealing with les fonctionnaires so I would suggest you pay your local tax office a visit and present your case to them.

Finally, when filling out your next tax return ensure you enter investment income in boxes 2TS and 2CG.

Regards

cajal

[parsnips]

[quote user="cajal"]Could I ask you to outline the 'mechanics' of claiming for the charges made on 2013 income, as paid in 2014.

I needed to visit our tax office with regards to a totally different issue (HMRC were being total jakasses regarding my annual R43 claim.)

Being aware of a possible ECJ ruling on social charges levied on savings income, the outcome of which would impact on British residents in possesion of a UK S1, I decideded to take a punt and ask the tax officer if  (a)  it would be posible to make a refund claim and (b) if it is at all possible, what is the procedure to make this claim?

She went away to take advice and on her return she told me that I should not be paying social charges on income generated by UK savings and investments, apart from dividend income, and that I could make a refund claim.

To enable me to follow up with this claim she told me to visit CPAM (2 minutes walk from the tax office) and have them issue a statement that I was/am in receipt of a UK issued S1, its' date of commencement and return it to the tax office and that she would deal with it on return from her Christmas break.

Six weeks later (9th of Feb)  my bank account was credited with all the social charges associated with my UK savings accounts.

As has been posted, over the years, an awful lot depends on the area/dept where you resde as to your relationship with the tax authorities, CPAM, Prefecture etc., etc,. etc.  I believe where we live we are rather fortunate when it comes to dealing with les fonctionnaires so I would suggest you pay your local tax office a visit and present your case to them.

Finally, when filling out your next tax return ensure you enter investment income in boxes 2TS and 2CG.

Regards

cajal

[/quote]

Hi,

      I have to tell you that under present rules your tax office have blundered -nothing new there , but this time in your favour!   However this seems to indicate that a change could be coming ;

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=162537&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=67749

[Fittersmate]

cajal and parsnips

Thank you both.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Fittersmate"]cajal and parsnips

Thank you both.[/quote] Decision on social charge refunds

---

Hi,

See latest on this here ;

Contributions sociales sur les revenus du capital - Service-public.fr

- The boxed article at the top dated 10/03/2015.

See also the press release to which it refers.

It seems that the government is to act to exempt french residents on S1

receiving investment income from abroad ( I assume-including bank

interest) from all social contributions.

Start drafting your reclamations!

[mint]

Oh, Parsnips, do tell us more..............

Do you just write to your tax office?

What about annuities, are they exempt as well?

[parsnips]

[quote user="mint"]Oh, Parsnips, do tell us more..............

Do you just write to your tax office?

What about annuities, are they exempt as well?

[/quote]

Hi,

       It might be best to await an announcement from the finance ministry, but you write reclaiming overpaid amounts , for years 2012,2013 and 2014 -before 31/12/2015.   Quoting the french ruling (when it comes ) and the references of the court case -see my post.

Yes, it will certainly cover annuities, as the original case was brought by a dutchman resident in france and receiving a dutch rente viagere (annuity).

[woolybanana]

And how long will we be kept waiting, I wonder for an official announcement.

[mint]

THANK YOU, Parsnips!

That is mega good news for us[:D]

[mint]

[quote user="woolybanana"]And how long will we be kept waiting, I wonder for an official announcement.[/quote]

Er................until the deadline for claiming has come and gone?

[parsnips]

[quote user="mint"][quote user="woolybanana"]And how long will we be kept waiting, I wonder for an official announcement.[/quote]

Er................until the deadline for claiming has come and gone?

[/quote]

Hi,

As you can see from my post, the information is already on the government service public site.  As in past changes favourable to the taxpayer , they will not go out of their way to bring it to general public attention .   There is enough official french and ECJ information available now to enable us to claim.  

   That doesn't mean there won't be a drawn out wrangle with local tax offices , like with the UK rents fiasco.

[woolybanana]

A French friend, retired banker, was talking about the ruling last night over dinner. I think he must read the financial press, so it is slowly permeating.

I wonder if we could come up with a suitable letter for the tax office.

[parsnips]

[quote user="woolybanana"]A French friend, retired banker, was talking about the ruling last night over dinner. I think he must read the financial press, so it is slowly permeating.

I wonder if we could come up with a suitable letter for the tax office.[/quote]

Hi,

 It is certainly in most of the serious french papers which deal with the economy.

      As we have till 31/12/2015 to claim for the available previous years, I would suggest you do as I am - getting copies of the relevant avis and declarations together, and then waiting to see what , if any, tax bulletins or announcements emerge in the coming months.   I also intend to put a note on this years declaration quoting the sources available at that time, and asking that social charges not be applied to my foreign dividends and interest.

   

[mint]

Yes, Parsnips, I got all my figures together yesterday afternoon.  It was such a cold, dreary day staying indoors was quite nice.

On the point about this year's return, we have already paid a third of our "estimated" impots because they have taken to demanding it in 3 tranches where we live.

[idun]

Before we started paying monthly mint, we always made three payments and I thought that everyone who paid, had to.

[mint]

[quote user="idun"]Before we started paying monthly mint, we always made three payments and I thought that everyone who paid, had to.

[/quote]

No, id, in our part of the Charente Maritime, it was always once a year and our taxes were higher then because of the then exchange rate and because of bank interest.

In our present location, it was also once a year in the first year but the last 2 years, it has been 3x a year.  I can say that with some authority because I had all the paperwork out yesterday afternoon[:)]

[Fittersmate]

We also used to pay once a year in Morbihan but now it is 3 x a year. This started when, instead of sending two separate bills for tax and Social Charges, they changed to sending one which covers both.

[idun]

I know it was a long time ago, but I still have my paperwork too[:)] and we had to make three payments, even all that time ago we had to. And there is still the same calender that there always.  I don't understand how the Charente would have it's own way of dealing with this. Unless ofcourse that the amount was below a certain sum?

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/calendrier.popup;jsessionid=DGQ2FUACNEHO3QFIEIPSFEY?pageId=part_cal_gene&espId=1&sfid=110&currentDate=201503&popupPageId=echeanceList&action=popupListEcheanceOfYear

And because of this, it has been no surprise that we have to make an interim payment in the UK.

[mint]

[quote user="Fittersmate"]We also used to pay once a year in Morbihan but now it is 3 x a year. This started when, instead of sending two separate bills for tax and Social Charges, they changed to sending one which covers both.[/quote]

Now that you have mentioned the timing, I do believe you are right in that the change took place when they merged the previously two separate taxes into just the one demand.

[parsnips]

[quote user="parsnips"]Hi,

I have just read in the BDO (tax consultants’) bulletin that there is a

case at the ECJ (EU Pilot 5973/2013) contesting the application of

french ‘social charges’ to the investment income of french resident UK

state pensioners (with S1) on the same grounds that their pensions are

exempted , ie. that as the proceeds of these impositions are ring fenced

to finance specific social services , and EU reg. 1408/71 states that

no-one can be subject to more than one social security system, then S1

holders cannot be made to finance the french health system through these

contributions.

We are advised , if we wish to get a refund for CSG etc. paid in

2012 (in the event that France loses the case) the deadline for a

provisional appeal , in writing , or by email , is 31 Dec 2014.

There is a similar ongoing case concerning tax and social charges on

house sales and rents of non-residents which is also subject to a

31/12/2014 deadline for provisional claims for refund.[/quote]

Hi,

Here is a clear explanation of the effects of the recent European Court decision on social charges .

http://www.juritravail.com/Actualite/controle-urssaf-employeur/Id/197531

[Pickles]

[quote user="mint"][quote user="Fittersmate"]We also used to pay once a year in Morbihan but now it is 3 x a year. This started when, instead of sending two separate bills for tax and Social Charges, they changed to sending one which covers both.[/quote]

Now that you have mentioned the timing, I do believe you are right in that the change took place when they merged the previously two separate taxes into just the one demand.

[/quote]

I always thought that below a certain sum due in tax, the tax was collected once, essentially in arrears, but above that sum it was collected three times, with two of those payments effectively being "in advance". Therefore, once the social charges were suddenly rolled into the sum due, that took some people, who had previously paid once per year, above the threshold and so needing to pay 3x per year.

[Fittersmate]

Parsnips - Would be grateful if you would suggest where and on which form should we put the note asking for social charges not to be applied to foreign dividends and interest. Also which source would be the best to quote - ie. the one that they might take more notice of although they do seem very good at ignoring anything they don't like/understand.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Fittersmate"]Parsnips - Would be grateful if you would suggest where and on which form should we put the note asking for social charges not to be applied to foreign dividends and interest. Also which source would be the best to quote - ie. the one that they might take more notice of although they do seem very good at ignoring anything they don't like/understand.[/quote]

Hi,

      The govt. has said an announcement will be made following the deliberations of the "Conseil d'Etat";  for now there's no rush as we have till 31/12/2015 to make back year claims.  If nothing is decided by the declaration deadline, I do intend to put a note in the" any other info " section of the declaration asking that in the light of the decision no CSG be applied to my dividends and interest , and once the avis is received I will claim back the CSG taken at source on LA, PEL etc.

    Best quote at present is the govt's own notice on service public - which promises an update in due course;

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml

[Fittersmate]

Many thanks.

[mint]

[quote user="parsnips"]

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml

[/quote]

Parsnips, I have just tried to look at your link and it says that the page no longer exists!

Could you please give us a reference to somewhere official to point to the finance bods?

Our tax form is ready to go and I thought I'd put a note on it, as you have said you intended to do, to request that they do not deduct social charges on our annuities and bank interest for 2014.