Louise Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hi, My name is Louise and I have just joined this forum. My boyfriend and I are moving to the Charente region within the next couple of months and are planning to open a Chambre d'hote next summer.We have found the house, planned the necessary rennovations (waiting with bated breath for the quotations to come in) and done our research in to marketing, advertising etc. The one thing I am stuck on is which tax regime I should register for ?? I have looked at the various options but now have got myself really confused with which option is best. Can anyone advise which option is the best or perhaps give information on the one they use. I am sure this has been asked before so I apologise in advance if the subject has been covered before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingicarus Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Hi Louise - you probably haven't got many responses because half the Brit chambres d'hotes owners in France aren't registered for tax...! Your best option is to go for the small enterprise system where you don't have to pay the tax in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote user="flyingicarus"]Hi Louise - you probably haven't got many responses because half the Brit chambres d'hotes owners in France aren't registered for tax...! Your best option is to go for the small enterprise system where you don't have to pay the tax in advance. [/quote]That's an extremely sweeping and unfounded statement.The OP might like to try http://www.laymyhat.com/ which is specifically aimed at rental owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thanks RH.We have being doing CDH for eleven years this month. When we started things were a little different and we received lots of conflicting information on what we should do and how we should register. One forum member, no longer with us, who then was in the business, gave us a lot of information in private and was very helpful. Armed with that information we went to visit our local Tresor Public and had a chat with a man there. He registered us for tax on a system which whilst we can carry on using it is no longer available for first time registration. We are very happy with this old system and have no intention of changing unless forced to by the Tresor Public.One of the systems it was suggested we used to pay tax involved paying a set fee per year for the first two years after which your tax was calculated annually. We were told how much we would have to pay over the first two years and it was quite high. When we challenged the figure we were told you can appeal this figure and get it reduced. Now in fairness this was a long time ago and things have changed so how it's done now I have no idea, we just carry on paying our tax as set up by the Tresor Public. Therefore, as it worked for us, I would recommend a visit to the Tresor Public, assuming you can still do this of course. The other thing you need to be aware of is that each department seems to interpret the law/rules differently so what works in one department may not work in another which is why talking face to face might not be such a bad idea and it is free. Our chap actually filled in the form for us, gave us a blank copy and we simply transferred his numbers over, couldn't have been simpler.Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
water rat Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 We've been chambre d'hoting for 7 years. Before starting we were very confused with conflicting advice, so we did what we would have done in the UK...... saw an accountant.Good Luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etoile Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Text removed - Advertising.You can PM or email the OP directly but not post directly on the forum. Them's the rules, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 [quote user="flyingicarus"]Hi Louise - you probably haven't got many responses because half the Brit chambres d'hotes owners in France aren't registered for tax...! [/quote]Or more likely they legally run as an adjunct to another registered business and returns are submitted via that business. As I am in that situation, I don't have advice to offer to the OP other than: if it is to be your only business, you would do well to talk through your specific financial and property situation with an accountant before deciding what regime to opt for. Don't think of paying for (good!) financial advice as a waste of money. The right advice is an investment in future success.Depending on your situation, the following advice:[quote user="flyingicarus"]Your best option is to go for the small enterprise system where you don't have to pay the tax in advance. [/quote]...could cost you dearly.Good luck with your plans - I second the recommendation to look at laymyhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Louise - as others have said, you need to get advice specific to your circumstances, as what is best for one chambre d'hote owner is not necessarily best for another, it all depends on your family situation, other income, etc, etc. The different business regimes all have potential advantages and potential disadvantages, and if you register for one where the potential advantages don't apply to people in your situation but the potential disadvantages do, you're stuffed. Choosing the right regime can make all the difference to whether your business succeeds or not. If you go to the Pole Emploi and register as a jobseeker and tell them you want to start a business, with a bit of luck they will channel you towards a whole raft of free business advice. (I know you're not looking for a job but you have to be registered to qualify for some of the free adivce). Unless things have changed in the last year or so you will get a trained, professinal business advisor who will guide you through the whole start-up process, tell you about any tax breaks you qualify for, and carry on giving you advice for the first year or so if you want. But you're only entitled to all this if you go along before you set up the business.I believe the Chambre de Commerce also offers free business advice along very similar lines - it all depends where you are, which is the better support network in your region (where I am the Pole Emploi route seems more proactive).(Sorry - I'll put the hobby horse back to bed now shall I ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Hi Everyone,Sorry for not replying sooner. I did not realise there had been some replies. I will have a proper read of them later when I finish work as no doubt I might have some more questions.Many Thanks and speak to you all later.Louise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariège Author Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Excellent advice from Euro Trash - I've just got back from the French Property Exhibition in London where I gave a couple of talks on the basics of setting up a business in France. And I lost count of the number of people I spoke to who were going to register as AE because it was 'easier'. Like a lot of people are saying on here, the easiest option in terms of regime is not always the most profitable... So get some professional advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 [quote user="Louise"]Hi Everyone, Sorry for not replying sooner. I did not realise there had been some replies. I will have a proper read of them later when I finish work as no doubt I might have some more questions. Many Thanks and speak to you all later. Louise[/quote]Louise, At the beginning of the thread, just above your postand to the left, there are three buttons, Print, Search, Notify. If you click on the Notify button you will get an email letting you know each time your post is replied to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariège Author Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Sorry off topic but Russethouse - I sent you a pm the other day on a different topic. Can you let me know if you got it? Funny feeling it might be floating in the ether... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Evening everyone. I've had the chance to look at the replies properly now and I think I might try the Pole Emploi as a first port of call. The BIC system where you can claim 70% (cant remember the exact figure) works out better as you pay less tax... Its the up front bit with them that made me reluctant as I will only just be starting the B&B. Thats why I think the autoentrepreneur seems favourable to most but I have seen an example where you end up paying twice as much tax.Do the Pole Emploi have english speaking people there ? I am going to be based in Dept 16 if anyone has experience in this area?Louise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 [quote user="Louise"]Evening everyone. I've had the chance to look at the replies properly now and I think I might try the Pole Emploi as a first port of call. The BIC system where you can claim 70% (cant remember the exact figure) works out better as you pay less tax... Its the up front bit with them that made me reluctant as I will only just be starting the B&B. Thats why I think the autoentrepreneur seems favourable to most but I have seen an example where you end up paying twice as much tax. Do the Pole Emploi have english speaking people there ? I am going to be based in Dept 16 if anyone has experience in this area? Louise[/quote]Before the, "whats the point if you don't speak French" brigade jump I also didn't speak much French when I arrived in France and you won't find that many French functionary's that speak English and if you do their English may probably be as good as your French. What I did was 'rent' a translator for the day and in my case I went to the Tresor Public in the morning and the Duane (you need a licence to serve breakfast and bigger licences to serve wine and booze with evening meals and they used to be free) and Chamber of Commerce in the afternoon taking my translator with me. Best 100 Euros (plus lunch) I ever spent ad thats how I discovered you can negotiate your first two years worth of tax up front.The first two years tax (well actually it's not tax but your social contributions, the French equivalent of NI which I will call it to keep it simple) was, at the time, worked out on two things. Firstly you would be open for just under six months (by a couple of days) of the year and the amount of tax per year was pre-set and if memory served worked out to about 6,000 Euros (or possibly slightly more) over the two years. As we started with only two rooms they calculated on ten weeks occupancy for each room against what we would be charging which bought the figures down quite a bit. As we were going to be on the BIC system for tax (which is separate and done through the Tresor public) it was reduced even further because they take 70% off your income and then your personal tax allowances and whats left your going to pay your 'NI', I think we ended up paying just over 200 Euros the first year and 300 Euros the second.If your only going to be open for just under six months of the year you can 'de register' with the Chamber of Commerce and not pay your 'NI' for the six months your not open then re-register just before you open the next year.You might also consider registering with either Gite de France or Clevacancs (or both). This gives you a proper 'rating' and both attract guests. I would take some time to brush up on your French because I keep stats on where my guests come from (how they found us, what nationality they are and how much they spend). When we started over 60% were English or English speaking (or countries) this figure has dropped considerably over the last couple of years whilst the French (now just over 50%), Dutch, German and Belgians have risen considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Quillan - a question that springs to mind is, if you 'de-register' for six months, does your health cover stay in force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 [quote user="EuroTrash"]Quillan - a question that springs to mind is, if you 'de-register' for six months, does your health cover stay in force?[/quote]To be honest I can't answer that as we don't do it because we only close for three months. There is somebody on the forum, I can't remember their name, who does do this based on advice from the same person I got mine and for them this system of deregistering and re-registering every year works very well. I seem to remember you can only open for something like 5 months and 29 days to be able to do this but don't take my word for it as it is only something I loosely remember as it's not relevant to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connolls Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi Louise,We opened this year and registered with A.E. because we can pay "based on what we earn each quarter".We are doing our first declaration this october on-line via Net-Enterprise (have asked some questions on the forum and are awaiting replies) so will let you know how we get on.The very best of luck with your new venture.Kind Regards Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 We had the chance to go on the A.E. when it first came out but elected to stay in the BIC system. Yes you have to pay at the end of the year but with the massive allowance you currently get our tax bill is so small that on one or two years in the distant past it was so low it was under 9 Euros so we didn't have to pay any. Also the system is nice and simple. You add up the value of all the invoices (or bills if you prefer) you issue, put the total in one box and post it back, they do the rest. You then wait for your "NI" bills to start coming in but even they are not that painful. I won't say how much we pay normally but lets say if I had to pay so little tax in the UK I would be a very happy chappy and yes every penny, or should I say cent, goes through the system that way I sleep very well at night.By the way I don't know if you have already bought a property but one 'no no' is to get a mortgage because there really is not enough money in this business to earn a proper living. Most people have a partner with another job or a second income perhaps from a pension. The only reason we have ours is to keep us in the French system for health care etc as Mrs 'Q' has a job in the UK (she works half here, prep work etc and half there) for which she can't be taxed in France. Plus I like meeting people and rather continue to travel the world it now comes to me, it's really great fun but it stops being fun if you need the money to survive.The other thing that might be of interest is if you have to do some renovating to make your Chambres D'hotes then you might have a talk with Gite de France as they used to offer (don't know if they still do) grants but you will then be 'locked in' to them for a while. We never did this but I think there may be one or two around the forum who have and can tell you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 [quote user="connolls"]how we get on. The very best of luck with your new venture. Kind Regards Mel.[/quote] Thanks very much Mel :-) Evening everyone. Thank you for all of your help. The BIC sounds promising from the point of view of ease and claiming against expenses. My query with this, is I thought you had to pay up front and I read that it could be thousands they ask you to pay ?? It was mentioned here that it was at the end of the year. We will be open for most of the year although that may change in the future. I have thought about the GDF grants but you have to be tied in to them for 10 yrs. We may consider that for our barn at a later date and perhaps convert to a gite. I already have the property. We were quite lucky to find it as the set up is ideal. It has 5 beds on the first floor and then an attic that is partly converted where we can have our bedroom. There is a bit of work to the plumbing to make them all ensuite. I have enwquired and been told I qualify for the E106 so will be ok for health care for the first 2 years. I think hiring a translator to help is a great idea although we have a few french / english speaking neighbours who I might ask to come with me. My french is getting better but plan on having lessons and practicing as much as I can when we get there. Its not the same trying to learn it from a book.... Louise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 [quote user="Louise"][quote user="connolls"]how we get on. The very best of luck with your new venture. Kind Regards Mel.[/quote] Thanks very much Mel :-) Evening everyone. Thank you for all of your help. The BIC sounds promising from the point of view of ease and claiming against expenses. My query with this, is I thought you had to pay up front and I read that it could be thousands they ask you to pay ?? It was mentioned here that it was at the end of the year. We will be open for most of the year although that may change in the future. I have thought about the GDF grants but you have to be tied in to them for 10 yrs. We may consider that for our barn at a later date and perhaps convert to a gite. I already have the property. We were quite lucky to find it as the set up is ideal. It has 5 beds on the first floor and then an attic that is partly converted where we can have our bedroom. There is a bit of work to the plumbing to make them all ensuite. I have enwquired and been told I qualify for the E106 so will be ok for health care for the first 2 years. I think hiring a translator to help is a great idea although we have a few french / english speaking neighbours who I might ask to come with me. My french is getting better but plan on having lessons and practicing as much as I can when we get there. Its not the same trying to learn it from a book.... Louise[/quote]BIC is good because you don't have to do accounts just add up all your invoices and plonk the amount on the form, nice and simple.Yes you may have to pay thousands up front but that's for your health care etc not tax but as I said you can negotiate this down.Being tied to GDF is not so bad. They will tell you how to do your rooms and give you a grading, they can also bring you a lot of business.No such thing as a E106, long gone I am afraid, it's now called an S1 I believe. Don't forget you get two years cover for health care from the date you last worked and got paid PAYE. It's just to tied you over till you either get work, become a pensioner or start a business.Translators, well friends are OK but they really need to be able to speak 'proper' French and not 'A' level French as most of the terms used they will not have heard of. Using a proper translator that you pay and get a facture from means they are legal and you have some comeback if they get it wrong and it costs you money. Even if you spend 200 Euros on a translator it could save you thousands, it did for me, saved me about six grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi, sorry I meant S1... they keep changing their mind what they will call it !! I am working up until the end of this month so that should be ok as a back up for the next two years. The neighbour I am thinking of is French but used to be an English teacher but I will bear in ind your point about if they get it wrong !! Its a valid one.How do they work out how much you pay up front for social security.... do they get you to predict how much you think you might earn. Do they base it on a certain occupancy % ? and then for how many months you will be open ? Do they then charge you the 20% (cant remember the exact social security calculation) on the 21% of earnings. Sorry hope that makes sense.... have read so much I am starting to confuse myself !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 [quote user="Louise"]I have enwquired and been told I qualify for the E106 so will be ok for health care for the first 2 years. [/quote]Something for you to check: I think the S1 CPAM affiliation may only be valid until you start your business even if that is before your two years are up. When your business is registered, your S1 cover will cease and you will begin paying cotisations. [quote user="Louise"]... hiring a translator to help is a great idea although we have a few french / english speaking neighbours who I might ask to come with me. [/quote]As has already been said, friends are useful - sometimes very useful - but if you are going to be discussing business registrations, tax regimes, cotisations, etc, you might be better to look for a professional translator who is used to dealing with those offices. If your friends haven't been through the process of registering a business themselves, they're not necessarily equipped with the right experience or knowledge to ask your questions in the way that might deliver the best outcome for you. We've found that when we have been told we can't do something, we need to re-state the desired goal and then ask if there is any way we can achieve that within the system. Often there is, but alternatives are not necessarily offered unasked. A translator - or friend - who is well used to dealing with officialdom could be better than one who speaks French well but has never worked here or had more than an over-flowing fosse septique to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi,Yes, you are right, it does cease. We will not be opening the B&B until summer next year so it will cover me until then. Good point about the translator too and using friends. Definitly something to bear in mind. Maybe I can use them when I go to get the license from the Douane but use a proper translator for the pole emploi or chamer of commerce. I have seen lots of adverts in the local english papers unless anyone can recommend a good one in dept 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connolls Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi Louise,Only me again.Just to let you know that I have just done my first on-line declaration for the A.E. System.This worked out better for us because of the ability to "pay as you earn" and avoid the "predictions of what the authorities think we MIGHT earn"It seems to have worked out well for our situation and was so easy to do on line (after help from everyone that replied to my plea's for advice !!!!) and our Chambres D'Hotes has done much better than we could ever have hoped for, for our first year. Lots of French, Belgian, Dutch and English guests.We did all our advertising via our own web site and Owners Direct. But had loads of help from our enthusiastic Marie who got us into all the tourist brochures and on their respective web sites. We have not registered with GDF, we thought they worked out expensive. Our friends DID............and they only got 1 booking from them all season.Whatever system you decide to register through I'm sure it will work out well for you.Best Wishes Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Thanks Mel :-) Its nice to hear you have done so well. I am really excited about our new venture... I cant wait to get over there and get stuck in. I have a couple of options up my sleeve if it doesnt work out but am really hoping it does. I manage an 80bed nursing home at the minute so looking after 15 will be easy..... (I know its not really but in comparison).I like the AE idea because of that but the other route is tempting because of the expenses. I saw an example of a site based on earning 20,000 (i know we are hoping) and it showed you pay twice as much with AE than BIC. I guess on a lower income the difference wouldnt be so much.Our mairie is apparantly very excited as the prospect of us opening. We have met him briefly. Fingers crossed he will be able to help us too. Which web hosting do you use Mel... have been looking in to that too (although as by my other post need to choose a name first before I can buy the domain name).Louise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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