Falling between stools?

[ali-cat]

I appreciate that with so much uncertainty around it is difficult to get definitive answers and its probably not a good idea to get too worked up on the basis of unsubstantiated rumours - however - I fear we may be in the category of 'honest losers' as a consequence of these apparent changes.

We are both in our early to mid forties, medically retired from UK govt jobs,  both receiving long term incapacity benefit and therefore covered by E121 for the time being.  We moved to France in August last year for health reasons - ironically.  We both have Cartes Vitales which are due to expire at the end of this month - presumably for routine renewal as we haven't received any letters or requests to contact CPAM.  Both our UK government pensions and incapacity benefit are taxed in the UK.  The only other income is a fairly small amount from savings interest.

While we currently have our Cartes Vitales this is due to receipt of long-term incapacity benefit and is subject to review.  We both have chronic health problems but have little faith that there won't be rule changes, arbitary decisions made etc so the possibility of losing our E121s is very real.  We made our first tax return in May and have not yet received an avis but given the fact that the bulk of our income is taxed in the UK I would assume in the absence of an E121 that we would not be making sufficient contributions to quality for CMU.  Is it the case that the E121 makes us currently affiliated to CMU (as the UK govt pays contributions) or is it based on individual contributions based on income?

Given that most public healthcare systems aim to provide a 'safety net' it seems bizarre that at some stage we could be paying UK taxes but be ineligible for NHS treatment,  be ineligible to join the French healthcare system due to insuficient income,  be unable (if we could afford it) to arrange for private health insurance which would cover our pre-existing conditions which are the reason for us being inactive in France in the first place,  and unable to become active as OH's condition is progressive and my condition was deemed after 20 years to be unlikely to improve in the next 20.  Incidentally we had heard anecdotally of a UK government retiree who requested and was granted the right to have their pension taxed in France rather than the UK.  If this was possible would it make any difference to eligibility for affiliation to CMU?

Apologies for the length of post and the amount of detail.  Nothing may come of all of this but better to be forewarned.

MR Kat

 

 

 

 

 

[cooperlola]

E121 recipients should be unaffected.  I'll try to find the appropriate bit on here!  What you pay into the CMU is based upon worldwide income, wherever taxed.  So, if your scenario has any basis in fact, the only reason you might have to apply to pay your tax here (if indeed you can) is to pay less income tax - should it in fact be less - not to alter your CMU status.

If the authorities in the UK decide to withdraw your E121's then you could, indeed, be affected.

  But many things are unclear as yet.  As more people get responses throughout this month, things should become clearer.

Edit : This article

http://www.exclusivehealthcare.com/

was one of the ones which began the hoo-hah.  As you see from the quote from the French authorities, E121 holders are indeed not affected.

[ali-cat]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

E121 recipients should be unaffected.  I'll try to find the appropriate bit on here!  What you pay into the CMU is based upon worldwide income, wherever taxed.  So, if your scenario has any basis in fact, the only reason you might have to apply to pay your tax here (if indeed you can) is to pay less income tax - should it in fact be less - not to alter your CMU status.

If the authorities in the UK decide to withdraw your E121's then you could, indeed, be affected.

  But many things are unclear as yet.  As more people get responses throughout this month, things should become clearer.

Edit : This article

http://www.exclusivehealthcare.com/

was one of the ones which began the hoo-hah.  As you see from the quote from the French authorities, E121 holders are indeed not affected.

[/quote]

 

Yep - saw the article and have been reading the threads here.  Hopefully E121 recipients should be unaffected which is fine for the present but the loss of E121 status (as a result of incapacity benefit being withdrawn which can happen very easily depending on personalities/interpretations etc) could change things rapidly i.e. would our E121 status (which presumably means we don't at present pay contributions into CMU) be considered to be be an existing affiliation or on losing the E121 would be we be considered as 'new' applicants?;  would we be eligible for affiliation as we are both 'inactif'?

[cooperlola]

This is where the grey area is.  What will constitute "existing" contributors is unclear at present.  There is no evidence either way at present - anecdotal or otherwise - that I have found, which clears this up.  My understanding is that there is an official meeting taking place today amongst the appropriate French authorities and that a clearer announcement will be made tomorrow.  We shall see.

[Grecian]

Hello Mr Kat, my wife and myself now find ourselves in a similar situation as yourselves, only differing at the moment, that we still live in the UK.

My wife is in receipt of long-term incapacity benefit, and we have had it confirmed from Newcastle that she would be eligible for an E121 if we move across, as we plan to do sometime next year, and I would be able to piggyback on her E121, so long as the French authorities agree their end.

In light of the recent 'developments' we to would be depending on her E121 to be in receipt of healthcare via CMU. We will both have private company pensions that we will be drawing on, and some income from savings/investments, apart from that nothing else.

I take onboard what you are saying about the continuation of receiving incapacity benefits, and thus your E121s, with the noises this present government is making about people on long-term incapacity benefits. My wife filled out her IB50 form back in April and after waiting 5 months, has been granted her benefits for another 5 years. This was after a bit a struggle, and the IB office contacting her own GP to verify what she had written was correct. She has been receiving long-term incapacity benefit for 13 years now, so the fact they chose to query her claim, in my mind means that they are trying to get people off the benefit anyway they can.

The only light that I can shed on existing claimants receiving the benefit, is a link to the DWP website showing the criteria, for which they will be marking claimants from next April when the name change for the benefit takes place, and all that this brings.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/welfarereform/tpca.pdf

You still have to score 15 points to qualify for the benefit, although by reading the pdf, it seems they have raised the bar to actually achieve the 15 points. The point scoring criteria starts on page 24, hope this will be of some use to you.

I see from your original post that you pay income tax on your incapacity benefits in the UK; I was under the impression that it was taxed in France.

So bottom line, we now have to make the decision to move to France as things stand at the moment, on my wife receiving her incapacity benefit for another 14 years, until I am 65 and qualify for my own E121. A bit of a scary decision to have to make.[:-))]

 

[ali-cat]

Grecian

Many thanks for the links to the new ICB assessment rules . Very useful to be forewarned of what you are up against.  Actually that sounds as if we are trying to cheat the system.  The reality as you know is that the criteria and assessment methods used can make all the difference to whether an illness is considered to be 'disabling' or not -and is all very arbitrary.

We've made the move and have to live with the consequences.  In your case,  not to teach you to suck eggs,  but I would think long and hard about moving now or in the near future.  The latest information seems to confirm the changes being made by the French government but with the possibility that only new arrivals will be affected and will not be applied retrospectively to those who may have become affiliated to CPAM 'in error'.  If true this suggests to me that national governments have a certain degree of latitiude in how they wish to interpret the relevant european legislation.  The point I'm making is that there is always the possiblity that rules will change on the French side to our detriment and equally that the British government could very well change the rules regarding receipt of ICB for those living abroad.  This being the case it would be prudent to plan assuming the worst case scenario i.e. can you afford to make the move to France should your wife lose her entitlement to ICB and hence you would both be required to take out private health insurance.  Could you afford it if you delayed your move until closer to retirement age? Also bear in mind that certain benefits that your wife may already receive or may be able to apply for in the UK e.g. DLA mobility allowance; care allowance etc are, at present,  not 'exportable' if moving abroad.

Sorry to be so pessimistic but this whole scenario has highlighted for me the fact that there are some fundamental things which we had previously taken for granted which we can lose from moving abroad.  On the brighter side - if you do hold on for a few more years you're likely to be in a much better financial position : less years to cover any income shortfall if this is the case,  plus your UK property is likely to have increased in value much more rapidly than French property.  Simple economics ensures that this is the long term trend vis UK and French property prices plus these recent changes to healthcare provision are bound to make France a less attractive early retirement prospect and hence will soften demand.  Plus you'll have a few more years to brush up on the language (and of being able to order in a curry)[:D]

Just my tuppence worth and hope this helps.

Mr Cat