Long Term Incapacity Benefit and form E121

[Whatamess]

[8-)]  I apologise in advance if the specifics of this query have been dealt with elsewhere but I must confess that this matter has got me a bit worried and, as usual, confused.

My husband and I are both living in the UK at present and in receipt of Long Term Incapacity Benefit.  We intend to move to France in early 2008.  We will not be working but ultimately intend to run a few gites and perhaps a very small caravan park (10 or less caravans, subject to approval). 

We intend to live in France full time, with our French home being our only residence.

I have seen in Living France today, in an article by Bill Blevins, that people on Long Term Incapacity Benefit can get a form E121 and thus not have problems with the current changes to healthcare entitlement in France.  I have also seen, on this forum, where people appear to have moved to France and have their Incapacity Benefit paid into French bank accounts and obtained form E121.

We were under the impression that once we moved to France we would not be able to claim Incapacity Benefit but now we are not so sure.

Could anyone please throw some light on this for us?  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Benjamin]

As always with this type of query your initial point of contact should be with DSS Newcastle as you will then be in a much better position to discuss your personal circumstances.

My knowledge of Incapacity Benefit is now a couple of years out of date but unless anything has changed Incapacity Benefit is exportable and can be paid directly to a French bank.

If you are in receipt of Incapacity Benefit you can also ask Newcastle for a form E121 and you will then be admitted into the French healthcare system. You will however need top up insurance just the same as a French person.

[Tony F Dordogne]

IB is payable in France and under normal circumstances you would be entitled to claim it in France and to have it paid into a French bank account.  I would also query with Newcastle whether or not your ability to work here excludes you from Incapacity Benefit.

The UK government have made it very clear over the past two weeks that the idea is to get people off Invalidity Benefit (or whatever they call it from 2008) and back into work, so if you are working here, operating gites and are registered as a business here etc., you may no longer qualify for IB as you're fit for work and IB is for people who are not fit to work and to claim it whilst you are working is a criminal offence.

Edit:  Should have added that if you are registered here with your business as you should be, once the French work out that you are registered with them for a business, they will almost certainly inform the UK authorities if you have submitted an E121 - and under the new scheme, who knows what may happen then.

[bigears]

hi

If you are incapacitated do you think you can take on such a committment to work?  Are you both incapacitated?  My sister in law who was early retired as a teacher (with incapacity benefit) was obliged to attend a medical assessment in Toulouse shortly after they moved full time to france and the french doctor pronounced her fit.  To be fair, she did not contest the decision and she continues to live an active life renovating properties with my brother.  In fact her back is much better than mine.  I have met a number of couples in france from the public sector who both have sickness retirement who now live an active healthy life in france.  You are classed as retired people because of your incapacity, please do not take the michael out of the rest of us who exited the public services without any benefit.  Funnily I have not met people from outside of the public services in such a position. 

[woolybanana]

It seems only reasonable that people should receiving IB should be reassessed from time to time both to give more benefits to those who might need them but also to reduce or even withdraw benefit from those who have recovered sufficiently to work. One suspects that the French doctors are less 'tolerant' of certain types of incapacity than UK ones.

[Whatamess]

To be clear - we do not intend to work and claim Incapacity Benefit.  Yes, we are both on Incapacity Benefit because we are unable to undertake paid employment.  However, up until the last couple of years we have both worked for employers, paid our National Insurance contributions, income tax, pension contributions, council taxes and any other "dues" - we are not criminals or benefit scroungers!  I am a retired Solicitor and my husband is a retired Police Officer - we claim Incapacity Benefit because we have been assessed and found to be entitled to do so.

We are not in a position however to set up in the UK the type of business we hope to set up in France, and running our own business is the only way that we can envisage working again.

We cannot work in France, i. e. we will be unable to earn anything, until our property has been suitably renovated and any permissions obtained for running a small caravan site.  When we are able to set up a business then, of course, we will pay whatever income tax etc. that is due.  When we have set up a business we will pay others to undertake whatever physical work we cannot undertake ourselves.

After reading the article in Living France I simply wanted to know whether it was possible to become a French resident and continue to receive Incapacity Benefit from the UK with a form E121, until such time as we are able to set up our business in France, as we had thought that becoming French residents precluded us from receiving Incapacity Benefit from the UK.

[Whatamess]

Bigears, I don't quite get you point.

We do not claim Incapacity Benefit because we got fed up with working, so thought we would take a medical retirement.  Believe it or not, I was earning a darn sight more than eighty quid a week as a lawyer! 

Nor do I think the change of location from the UK to France will make one iota of difference to our incapacity - the ability to run our own business may however make a difference to our quality of life and self esteem.

I am not quite sure why or in what way I am being accused of taking the michael out of people who have exited public services without any benefit.  I am not an ex public sector/service employee in any event.

[Tony F Dordogne]

I would have thought that if you are renovating your property and obtaining all the necessary permits, having the work done on your property and getting everything organised and the necessary permissions, whilst you may not be being paid, you're working, you're creating your business and therefore you're fit for work.

But I guess as a lawyer you'll be good at using language to justify your position - legally you'll not be paid so could argue that you're not working but then that's only legally.

The problem is that these sort of argument - I want to claim while I'm in France, quality of life, self esteem, setting up businesses to make me feel better - are the arguments that have been used here by people in a similar position claiming IB and working or those that claim DLA still through a UK accomodation address and are the type of arguments that get Brits a bad name and cause us all problems in the long run.

If it's only £160 a week for the two of you, why not do some freelance work for one day a week, you'll earn much more than that as a lawyer, get your self esteem back by working and not claiming and be quids in and wholly, morally legit?

[Sunday Driver]

If the OP qualifies for incapacity benefit then she is entitled to it as a right, until such times as she no longer meets the criteria.  It's the same as in any right to a benefit. 

I don't see the 'moral question' having any relevance here.

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

SD, the criteria is fitness to work, this has been discussed in the UK ad nauseum over the past few months on disability forums and in the media.  I investigated hundreds of these cases in a previous life in the UK and more recently went through all this in very fine detail in the UK when I wanted to go back to work but couldn't  and whilst the medical criteria is important, one of the major criteria is the ability to work.

Whilst the medical condition may still be present, if you're working in any capacity, self employed or otherwise employed, then you're not entitled to IB.  It's called signing and working, same as it was when IB was called Sickness Benefit and the same for people getting Jobseekers Allowance in the UK.

Sort of like the programmes about the people with bad backs who work as waiters, scaffolders, drivers whilst claiming benefits, it's the same thing and even if you're getting a business up and running, putting things in place, getting the buildings renovated etc, it's still classified as work.

The moral question is whether it's morally right to do the preparatory work 'on the black' (used advisedly here) whilst claiming benefit and using the argument that 'you're not actually working'.  Leaving aside whether it's factually correct is it morally correct ?

You're either too sick to work or your not, that's the way the benefit is paid in the UK - if you're too sick to work, then you can't work.

[bigears]

hi

To my mind, IB is a negative benefit and the number of people on it is a national disgrace.  Whatamess, I do not know your or your partners circumstances, nor do I wish to, I'm sure you both can justify why you are both deemed to be incapacitated for the rest of your lives as can all people in your position.   It must be a nice feeling not to have to worry, as many on this forum are now doing, about the cessation of health care provision.  I know many on IB living the good life in france, it is my opinion from observation, that most are capable of undertaking meaningful work, but I'm no expert.  If uk joe public was shown some video footage of the activities some of these people get up to, there would be an outcry.  Self esteem is something to do with feeling good about yourself with regard to what type of person you are and how you have conducted yourself.  Are you sure you do not want to run a business to make even more money?  Best not to broadcast your circumstances unless you are in the company of likeminded people.  A very good friend of mine a fireman, who has recently retired, was told for his last ten years of service that he could get out with his bad back condition.  He nevertheless soldiered on and retired normally.  I have discussed these issues with him and he said he was not that sort of person, he could not do it, perhaps something to do with his self esteem.  Good luck to you in your new life in france but please be wary of having this type of discussion in the company of anyone with bigears.  I will not take any further part in this discussion. 

[Benjamin]

It's a pity that you've only ever met people living on Incapacity Benefit in France living the good life. If you had been lucky enough to have met people who in your opinion were not swinging the lead then you may have ended up with a more balanced view of what these people go through.

This biased and oft bigoted view that the majority of people on Incapacity Benefit are scroungers does nothing to elevate the self esteem of genuine claimants.

Incidentially, nobody "lives" on Incapacity Benefit.

[Nickel]

I am just a little confused and maybe Tony can help - if you are both in receipt of long term sickness benefit and you envisage coming to France, setting up a business during which time you continue to receive IB. Once  the business is registered and you are working you  then have to discontinue the benefit ?

That seems OK but Incapacity Benefit is given (unless one is severely disabled) after a medical examination of your physical and mental health using a points scoring system.

So, how can you assume you will be able to work once the business is set up ? if you are medically assessed here and found not to be capable of working - or indeed the reverse you may be pronounced capable of working before the business is up and running ?

 

 

 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

That's how the system should work - but it would depend on when the work setting up the business which would be part of any business plan, is deemed to have kicked in by the claimant and that's where the signing and working would take place.

Theoretically, you could be working in the preparatory phase of the business and claiming benefit but when registered as a business, stop claiming.  My question is when does that happen, to me, if you're working it's like being pregnant, either you are or you're not and the fact you're working on the business unregistered or in a preparatory phase, it doesn't make any difference, you're working.

[Scooby]

I'm not sure I follow the logic of what you're saying Tony?  If you are saying that being sick and on incapacity benefit would prevent you employing anyone to do work for you - surely that would mean a disabled person would never be able to employ decorators to decorate their home, tradesmen to effect repairs etc..?  Some illnesses have active phases and remissions (e.g. Lupus, RA, MS - which may mean that the person has the capacity to do some things for short periods but couldn't hold down a full-time job. Without knowing the facts regarding the medical condition of the OP's I would not presume to judge.

The link you need for information on IB payable outside the UK is: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/sa29/benefits_05.asp

[ali-cat]

[quote user="bigears"]

hi

To my mind, IB is a negative benefit and the number of people on it is a national disgrace.  Whatamess, I do not know your or your partners circumstances, nor do I wish to, I'm sure you both can justify why you are both deemed to be incapacitated for the rest of your lives as can all people in your position.   It must be a nice feeling not to have to worry, as many on this forum are now doing, about the cessation of health care provision.  I know many on IB living the good life in france, it is my opinion from observation, that most are capable of undertaking meaningful work, but I'm no expert.  If uk joe public was shown some video footage of the activities some of these people get up to, there would be an outcry.  Self esteem is something to do with feeling good about yourself with regard to what type of person you are and how you have conducted yourself.  Are you sure you do not want to run a business to make even more money?  Best not to broadcast your circumstances unless you are in the company of likeminded people.  A very good friend of mine a fireman, who has recently retired, was told for his last ten years of service that he could get out with his bad back condition.  He nevertheless soldiered on and retired normally.  I have discussed these issues with him and he said he was not that sort of person, he could not do it, perhaps something to do with his self esteem.  Good luck to you in your new life in france but please be wary of having this type of discussion in the company of anyone with bigears.  I will not take any further part in this discussion. 

[/quote]

You're right - you're no expert!

Funny thing is I probably used to think like you.  My wife and I are in our 40s medically retired from the Civil Service - me with M.E. and her with a 'back condition' and both receiving Incapacity Benefit.  So we probably tick all the boxes on your personal prejudice list.

Despite having M.E. since 1986 I was not prepared to let it stop me.  Since then I have managed : A levels,  a first class degree, masters degree with distinction and 15 years in the civil service with a promotion coming every 3 years.  Not the typical profile of a 'malingerer'.  Unlike most others I didn't take the 'statutory sick days' even when feeling VERY ill for two reasons - I'd feel guilty about it which defeated the purpose somewhat and I entered the civil service on medical probation so felt I had something to prove.  It was a far from easy time with the fatigue, irritable bowel syndrome, headaches, dizziness, muscle and joint aches and pains etc to name just a few of the myriad symptoms and home and social life and eventually holidays were put on the back burner so I could keep working.  This was until 3 years ago when I hit a brick wall and couldn't drive,  walk,  or read a few paragraphs for over a year.

Self esteem and soldiering on is one thing but in retrospect I was a fool.  I should have taken the time at the start necessary to try and recover and perhaps now I'd be free of this bloody illness.  Instead at 45 year old,  it is unlikely I'll ever be able to work full time again and I'll certainly never get back to my previous earning potential regardless of the state of my health . 

Living the good life in France?  I wish!.  Living in France has allowed us to afford some sort of life but 'people wot lunch' - I don't think so.  Not when I need to sleep 2-3 hours every afternoon just to be able to get through the rest of the day,   regardless of the fact that we can't afford to do so more than once in a blue moon.  If you were to 'observe' us no doubt you'd think we were perfectly fine - but you'd be seeing us on those days when we both felt well enough to leave the house.

Is it nice not having to worry about the health care changes? - not when you have 20 odd years before state retirement age and Incapacity Benefit is regularly (quite rightly) reviewed.  My OH has her review next Tuesday and despite having the MRI scans showing the damage, current paralysis and a foot brace to prove she isn't 'swinging the lead' who knows how it will go.  In my own case there is no cure for M.E and no treatment. I found this out after 20 years of tests and attempted treatements in the UK which seemed to do more harm than good - so I don't go to my French doctor. No doubt when the time comes for my review the doctor will state that he has no knowldege of me and as far as he's concerned I'm fit and well.  At which stage I'll lose my £25 per week Incapacity Benefit (reduced because I'm lucky enough to have a small ill health pension) and my E121 and hence no health cover with no prospect of working. However,  despite the fact that I'm not currently affected  - that isn't stopping me from trying to help those who are.

I can honestly say that I would much prefer still to be working rather than subsisting on one quarter of my prior income and having to live with the prospect of this being reduced further - regardless of the impact on my self esteem which I can assure you is considerable and not helped by ill-informed opinions. However I try not to beat myself up about it too much.

No doubt there are a number of 'chancers'.   The sad thing is the chancers will always be able to manipulate the system while the genuine cases are the ones who will suffer when the government tightens things up.  By all means direct your bile at them - but leave the rest of us out of it until you've been in the same position yourself.  

Mr Cat 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

No Scooby, there's no problem about people who are unable to do anything for themselves being able to employ people to do the work for them - but the actual physical work isn't the issue.  Even directing and getting work done by a third party as part of a business is likely to be regarded as working as it part of getting the business operational, part of the business plan, then it's work.

Many people with businesses here get third parties to do the work for them but hopefully they're not claiming benefit whilst doing so.

Mr Cat, I agree completely - there are days when I really do want to crawl into my bed and do nothing and other days when I feel relatively well and try to do too much, the problem with any multiplicity of medical conditions - and it's recognised by the IB and DLA authorities - is that you have bad days and better days and they can live with that.  To me, working has always been an important part of my life and though I have had to recognise the fact that I'm unemployable as the nice man at the DWP and Job Centre places in Romford told me "Nobody in their right mind is going to take you on, you've been medically retired TWICE" (caps to show his emphasis) I'd love to go back to work but last time I worked for a third party, it just about saw me off and I had to go back on the serious medication.  Like you, I should theoretically have called it a day work wise back in the 1980s when I was given up to five years to live but like you I worked through it, I went on every research project available and have managed to stay ahead on points for the past 24 years.

I'm not looking for sympathy here, it's the way that life is for people like Mr & Mrs Cat and other people in my position, you have to accept that as a fact.

But if you can work, even in the preparatory stage of a business, it's still 'the business' whether you're carrying the bricks or laying patios yourself or just directing people that are doing it and if you're well enough to do that, you shouldn't be claiming IB.

[Newcomer]

 

 

Good Luck and I hope it all works out for you.

 

[woolybanana]

Nobody on this site has accused anyone of swinging the lead. Each case on its merits. But my own experience of a small number of people on this benefit (mainly teachers with nervous conditions) is that they are quite capable of earning a living in another job. And so they should. if you are capable or setting up and running a business in France then you shouldn't be on IB. Wonder how it would be if you did the same in UK?

[Sunday Driver]

I think we need to come back to the practicalities here....

You are awarded incapacity benefit on medical grounds and if your condition changes so that you become capable of work, then you no longer qualify.  The review process takes care of this.

You can't run a system which leaves it to the claimant to decide.  Imagine someone saying to themselves "I think I could try and manage a small job" then looking in the papers for a vacancy, going down to the job centre, sitting down and preparing a CV, posting it off, attending interviews etc.  Arguably, they are now working towards "setting up employment" for themselves, so at what stage in this process should they declare themselves fit for work and renounce their benefit?  What if they renounce, then don't get a job?  The  trigger for loss of benefit is when they actually obtain the job.

The original poster may put the effort into setting up the new business then decide that, on balance, it will not be a viable proposition.  They will only have achieved their goal once their new business is registered and up and running.  This will be the trigger for the French secu to review their status and revoke their benefit rights.

It's how the system works.....

 

[Nickel]

Yes of course that is right - but - there is a possibilty, indeed likelihood that the benefits agency in UK will send them a claim form for a "reassessment" and probably request a medical interview/examination. 

This may occur regardless of their time frame of setting up a business and for the doctor.. well he /she will be only assessing the claimants "ability" to work. If at this time they are considered "able" to work then the benefit will be lost,.Then they can continue with their business plans ( and good luck to them) but they could also be assessed as still  "incapable" of work - continue receiving the benefit but then would have to shelve the business plans ????

[Tony F Dordogne]

But the assessment is not just in the hands of the doctor, it's in the hands of the claimaint also, they have a responsibility to tell the DWP that they are now fit for work or working as the form claimants have to fill in make clear, it's the question about changes in circumstances which covers it.

The benefit isn't for people to be thrown off, they make the initial claim and it's up to them, not the examining doctor, to tell the authortities when they are well enough to work or when they intend to start work again, not the DWP's responsibility to take the benefit from them.

Enough said for me I think - SD, for once we have to agree to disagree I think, this benefit isn't a right, like a driving licence, it's something that comes with responsibilities on the claimant to deal with. 

[Benjamin]

woolybanana wrote

Nobody on this site has accused anyone of swinging the lead.

Maybe the following from bigears helps?

Whatamess, I do not know your or your partners circumstances, nor do I

wish to, I'm sure you both can justify why you are both deemed to be

incapacitated for the rest of your lives as can all people in your

position.

 

woolybanana wrote

But my own experience of a small number of people on this benefit

(mainly teachers with nervous conditions) is that they are quite

capable of earning a living in another job.

You obviously live in quite a closed environment woolybanana but it's reassuring to know we have such an emininetly qualified Consultant Psychiatrist in our midst.

[woolybanana]

Benjamin, to deal with the specifics of your message old chap, whilst bigears comment was perhaps a little off base, it does not imply that anyone was swinging the lead. Merely that the benefit should be justified. And probably is in many cases

Secondly, in what I was careful to call my limited experience, it was very convenient a few years ago to get rid of the bad,  the lazy, the useless, the uncommitted, the timeservers in education by allowing them to plead stress and nervous exhaustion. This was particularly true of FE where there was a major turnout. Many of these were relatively young and got themselves IB. Some went on to do other things, others work on the black in such things as e-bay or do private language teaching. many are quite capable of working.  Fortunately I believe things have tightened up now.

This should not be interpreted as disapproving of IB or of the many many deserving people who receive it. But as you can see from earlier correspondence, there is a thin line between the benefit and being fit for work.

[Benjamin]

Thank you for taking the time to expand on your earlier post. I have no knowledge of the work area you talk about so I cannot comment except to say that we are all probably aware of people who are getting a benefit who clearly are quite capable of working legitimately.

There was a delightful interview on one of those renovating property programmes with a man who had MS. As he said, no one would employ him becuase he was so unreliable in when he was and wasn't able to work so he became a property renovator and worked at his own pace. He said he could  normally work in the mornings but would often be found in the afternoons lying on the floor and painting skirting boards which was all he was by then capable of doing!