Follow-up to E106 : A worrying development

[cooperlola]

As my o/h and I both started working full time at 17, can we have the 4 years we didn't spend in "full time education" as a bonus at the end then please?  These arguments are a bit spurious, imo.  The biggest problem seems to me (having dealt with a lot of these things in the last 3 months) is for the professions where "early" retirement is mandatory, not a choice.  The worst cases we're hearing about are from police, armed forces etc where the retirement age is lower.  Many CPAM staff have expressed amazement that they are not considered as proper pensioners by their own governments, as they would have been if they had had the same jobs here.  They just do not understand why they do not qualify for E121s as they apparently have government pensions. To be honest, neither do I.

[Chassaing]

[quote user="cooperlola"]As my o/h and I both started working full time at 17, can we have the 4 years we didn't spend in "full time education" as a bonus at the end then please?  These arguments are a bit spurious, imo.  The biggest problem seems to me (having dealt with a lot of these things in the last 3 months) is for the professions where "early" retirement is mandatory, not a choice.  The worst cases we're hearing about are from police, armed forces etc where the retirement age is lower.  Many CPAM staff have expressed amazement that they are not considered as proper pensioners by their own governments, as they would have been if they had had the same jobs here.  They just do not understand why they do not qualify for E121s as they apparently have government pensions. To be honest, neither do I.[/quote]

Hi Coops, agreed.  But in UK there isn't a problem, as 'residents' their healthcare is covered.  Unfortunately in certain parts of Europe, 'Freedom of Movement' isn't free.

[cooperlola]

Beautifully put, Lebois.

[groslard]

[quote user="lebois"][e]

Hi Coops, agreed.  But in UK there isn't a problem, as 'residents' their healthcare is covered.  Unfortunately in certain parts of Europe, 'Freedom of Movement' isn't free.

[/quote]

Are there other European countries where early retired British people don't need private Health Insurance?

[Scooby]

[quote user="Joshua"]Hi Wooly..........

Local government pensions are based on 1/80th for each full years service with a maximum of 40/80ths, that's 1/2 pay

So a FULL pension is half final pay plus a pro-rata lump sum.

Most people in local government service could have had a higher salary in the private sector but opt for security and a reasonable pension at the end.

Lots of Councils, to balance budgets, look to lose jobs by offering early retirement and often people retire only with the service they have worked.

Joshua[:D]

[/quote]

Most private sector employee are in defined contribution not defined benefit schemes - so exect to get half of what a local governmnt employee gets - with no options for enhanced pensions when retiring early due to ill health.

[minnie]

That's right Joshua.  Before my 32 years in the Civil Service I worked 8 years for a Bank (having left school at 16).  I only get 32/80  of my pay for Civil Service pension, but I have paid 40 years worth of full NI stamps!

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="groslard"][quote user="lebois"][e]
Hi Coops, agreed.  But in UK there isn't a problem, as 'residents' their healthcare is covered.  Unfortunately in certain parts of Europe, 'Freedom of Movement' isn't free.
[/quote]
Are there other European countries where early retired British people don't need private Health Insurance?
[/quote]I know that Austria is one, Groslard, where other Europeans join the state system (it also recently came top in a healthcare poll for Europe).  In Holland, all healthcare is being privatised but the safety nets are bigger and the insurance industry is better geared up so PHI is a good deal cheaper (mostly because their own nationals are now joining en masse of course, so it's a matter of numbers as much as anything.)  And all the "new entry" countries must have a state system, which all Europeans can join - it was part of the condition for entry.

[Scooby]

Double post

[Scooby]

[quote user="cooperlola"]As my o/h and I both started working full time at 17, can we have the 4 years we didn't spend in "full time education" as a bonus at the end then please?  These arguments are a bit spurious, imo.  The biggest problem seems to me (having dealt with a lot of these things in the last 3 months) is for the professions where "early" retirement is mandatory, not a choice.  The worst cases we're hearing about are from police, armed forces etc where the retirement age is lower.  Many CPAM staff have expressed amazement that they are not considered as proper pensioners by their own governments, as they would have been if they had had the same jobs here.  They just do not understand why they do not qualify for E121s as they apparently have government pensions. To be honest, neither do I.[/quote]

Well if they are anything like my brother-in-law then I can well understand why they don't get a state pension on retirement (at 42!!!!) - they are already getting very lucrative pensions (curtesy of the UK tax payer) for a very long period as it is.  My brother-in-law's monthly pension is three times what my sister earns as a carer for severely disabled adults.  Despite health problems she works long shifts, has to maul patients, clean up sick and s**t - and has the prospect of this until she reaches 65 - with no early retirement.   On the police pensions issue, a friend of mine had to leave the police force in her mid twenties due to asthma.  She receives a life time pension of £500 per month - despite the fact she is perfectly capable of working - she is now a full-time secondary teacher.  Her husband is retiring in a couple of years after completing his required years - aged early forties.  He's planning on running his own business - as well as drawing his very generous pension (courtesy of the UK taxpayer).  It's a shame Brown can't take the same approach with these drains on the UK public purse in the same was as Sarkozy is trying to do with the drains on the French public purse.

[Scooby]

[quote user="cooperlola"]As my o/h and I both started working full time at 17, can we have the 4 years we didn't spend in "full time education" as a bonus at the end then please?  [/quote]

As I started work at 16 I will have worked 49 years by the time I get to state retirement age.  Although I have worked full time for 30 years  I am only in my mid 40's

[Chassaing]

[quote user="Scooby"]  It's a shame Brown can't take the same approach with these drains on the UK public purse in the same was as Sarkozy is trying to do with the drains on the French public purse.

[/quote]

Hi Scooby,

I'm not sure your statement is true; just for my interest, could you present the data or point me to your source that supports your view please?

Thank you in advance.

Lebois

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="cooperlola"]As my o/h and I both started working full time at 17, can we have the 4 years we didn't spend in "full time education" as a bonus at the end then please?  [/quote]

As I started work at 16 I will have worked 49 years by the time I get to state retirement age.  Although I have worked full time for 30 years  I am only in my mid 40's
[/quote]I did go on to say - in the very next breath - that I thought the argument was spurious, did I not? 

[Chassaing]

Hi Cooperlola, I see Mary et al are not getting complete support with their 'Written declaration', at the moment. (They could get a late charge I dream)  What other avenues can be taken on this issue?  If any, as this healthcare issue is a European one. Ongoing
Authors : Mary Honeyball, Proinsias De Rossa, Bill Newton Dunn
on health care provision for European citizens residing in another Member State
Date opened : 22/10/2007
Lapse date : 05/02/2008
Number of signatories : 96 - 17/01/2008

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Scooby"][Well if they are anything like my brother-in-law then I can well understand why they don't get a state pension on retirement (at 42!!!!) - they are already getting very lucrative pensions (curtesy of the UK tax payer) for a very long period as it is.  My brother-in-law's monthly pension is three times what my sister earns as a carer for severely disabled adults.  Despite health problems she works long shifts, has to maul patients, clean up sick and s**t - and has the prospect of this until she reaches 65 - with no early retirement.   On the police pensions issue, a friend of mine had to leave the police force in her mid twenties due to asthma.  She receives a life time pension of £500 per month - despite the fact she is perfectly capable of working - she is now a full-time secondary teacher.  Her husband is retiring in a couple of years after completing his required years - aged early forties.  He's planning on running his own business - as well as drawing his very generous pension (courtesy of the UK taxpayer).  It's a shame Brown can't take the same approach with these drains on the UK public purse in the same was as Sarkozy is trying to do with the drains on the French public purse.
[/quote]

 

What a load of total misinformation.

Police officers can retire after 30 years service on a "full" pension which is 2/3rds of their salary and for which they have paid 12% of their salary (so not the UK taxpayer who is paying) The minimum age that one can retire on a full pension  is therefore 49yrs of age but as most UK police forces do not recruit anyone under the age of 21 then generally speaking most officers reiring on a full pension retire in their early 50,s NOT early 40,s

Yes one can retire after 25 years service but that is on half of your salary and one does not receive the pension till 50 yrs of age.

As for your friend who left in her mid 20,s she possibly had 5 years service so would receive very little as a pension certainly not 500 pounds a month which is precisely half of the pension an officer who retires after 30 years service receives ,she is either having you on or you are just making it up.The only way for someone to receive a half decent pension after 5 years service is because they are unable to work due to a WORK related injury sustained while on duty and even that is not generous until one has attained 10 years service when the service element is doubled to give one a pension entitlement of 20 years .

[cooperlola]

[quote user="lebois"]

Hi Cooperlola, I see Mary et al are not getting complete support with their 'Written declaration', at the moment. (They could get a late charge I dream)  What other avenues can be taken on this issue?  If any, as this healthcare issue is a European one. Ongoing
Authors : Mary Honeyball, Proinsias De Rossa, Bill Newton Dunn
on health care provision for European citizens residing in another Member State
Date opened : 22/10/2007
Lapse date : 05/02/2008
Number of signatories : 96 - 17/01/2008

[/quote]We are working on this.  There are still quite a few promises in the offing and the numbers went up by 25 again last week.  We also have ECAS working with the MEPs, plus some good support from two French MEPs who are in the forefront of the move to unify the health position throughout the Union.  You are right, and this really is a matter for Europe to sort out.

We're preparing an update on the site for this, but meanwhile, take a look at :

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/latest_news/yannick_vaugrenard_12_01.htm

[Chassaing]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

We are working on this.  There are still quite a few promises in the offing and the numbers went up by 25 again last week.  We also have ECAS working with the MEPs, plus some good support from two French MEPs who are in the forefront of the move to unify the health position throughout the Union.  You are right, and this really is a matter for Europe to sort out.

We're preparing an update on the site for this, but meanwhile, take a look at :

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/latest_news/yannick_vaugrenard_12_01.htm

[/quote]

Thank you Cooperlola,  it is reasuring that some French MEPs can see the 'big picture'.  Well done for your and the team's continueing hard work and success. 

All the very best,

Lebois

[groslard]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

 the move to unify the health position throughout the Union.  You are right, and this really is a matter for Europe to sort out.

[/quote]

This would be a very good thing, but I believe it was UK members of the European Parliament  who lead a last minute climb-down on recent proposals to establish this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2007/12/a_slippery_slope_for_health_1.html

[Will]

As well as the MPs' worries about the effect on the NHS which Groslard has highlighted, there is also the fact that the EU member states' health systems are mutually incompatible. Qualification for most of them is based on insurance, usually a mixture of private (for those who can afford it) and state (for children, the poor, the elderly etc), whereas the NHS and one or two others are basically state-funded and universally available to all bona-fide residents.

Although a move to standardise the systems would be welcomed by a number of emigrants to France, it would certainly be vehemently opposed by just about all the other British who remain part of the NHS.

So unless either the NHS is drastically changed, or the rest of Europe adopts a residence-based system then a unified scheme is likely to remain in cloud cuckoo land for the foreseeable future. A Europe-wide NHS is highly unlikely given both the cost and the fact that insurance-based schemes tend to be portable between countries - and thus ideally suited to an EU-wide health service - whereas residence-based schemes like the NHS are not.

[groslard]

It seems logical to me that Britain should adopt the same system as the rest of Europe: the insurance based model.

At the same time all holders of E cards  ( such as a the E 121) would continue to pay social security contributions in the home country whose system pays for their care.

[Scooby]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

What a load of total misinformation.

[/quote]

Sorry but the facts are correct and I stand by them - and can provide names etc by pm if anyone wants them.  Maybe the rules have changed because both my B-i-L and my close friend retired 15 years ago and both drew their pensions immediately.  Both entered the police force age 18 - as did my friends husband.  Even if the rules have changed, 2/3 of your salary as a pension after only 25 years is a huge amout more than most people on a 40/80ths scheme get - especially when you consider it's paid from a much earlier age.  And the 40/80th group are doing extremely well compared to those on private defined contribution schemes.  Then there is the group my sister is in who only have the state pension to rely on.  Difficult to feel hugely sympathetic really. (As an aside my b-i-l bought a run down farm in one of the national parks (in the UK).  He built several new barns, extended the farm house and converted several of the old barns into holiday cottages - doing most of the labouring himself.  So although 'early retired' quite capable of doing another job so didn't really justify the big early pension imho - like many others.)

The point about Sarkosy was his recent attempt to reduce the generous pension entitlements of certain groups of government employees - notably the railway workers to reduce the drain on the French public pocket.

The point I'm making is that a lot of the 'inactifs' I'm sure, will have similar backgrounds, early retirement from comfortable government jobs on a nice big pension (compared to the income of many French), with plenty of proceeds from the sale of a house in the UK - if not a lump sum invested the enough to be mortgage free.  Its not suprised the French feel agrieved.  No 'inactif' is without healthcare - as groslard said already -  you just have to move back to the UK. 

[Scooby]

[quote user="groslard"]At the same time all holders of E cards  ( such as a the E 121) would continue to pay social security contributions in the home country whose system pays for their care.

[/quote]

I agree!

[Chassaing]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]

What a load of total misinformation.

[/quote]

Sorry but the facts are correct and I stand by them - and can provide names etc by pm if anyone wants them.  Maybe the rules have changed because both my B-i-L and my close friend retired 15 years ago and both drew their pensions immediately.  Both entered the police force age 18 - as did my friends husband.  Even if the rules have changed, 2/3 of your salary as a pension after only 25 years is a huge amout more than most people on a 40/80ths scheme get - especially when you consider it's paid from a much earlier age.  And the 40/80th group are doing extremely well compared to those on private defined contribution schemes.  Then there is the group my sister is in who only have the state pension to rely on.  Difficult to feel hugely sympathetic really. (As an aside my b-i-l bought a run down farm in one of the national parks (in the UK).  He built several new barns, extended the farm house and converted several of the old barns into holiday cottages - doing most of the labouring himself.  So although 'early retired' quite capable of doing another job so didn't really justify the big early pension imho - like many others.)

The point about Sarkosy was his recent attempt to reduce the generous pension entitlements of certain groups of government employees - notably the railway workers to reduce the drain on the French public pocket.

The point I'm making is that a lot of the 'inactifs' I'm sure, will have similar backgrounds, early retirement from comfortable government jobs on a nice big pension (compared to the income of many French), with plenty of proceeds from the sale of a house in the UK - if not a lump sum invested the enough to be mortgage free.  Its not suprised the French feel agrieved.  No 'inactif' is without healthcare - as groslard said already -  you just have to move back to the UK. 

[/quote]

Scooby, thank you for explaining your true motives for 'Forum Baiting.'   If you want to try to distract us from helping people less fortunate than ourselves, go ahead, who are we to stop you.  But just remember, we will resolve this issue and most will live a long and interesting life, so please keep working long and hard because 'the pot' needs people like you. 

All the very best,

Lebois

[Maggie]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]

What a load of total misinformation.

[/quote]

Sorry but the facts are correct and I stand by them - and can provide names etc by pm if anyone wants them.  Maybe the rules have changed because both my B-i-L and my close friend retired 15 years ago and both drew their pensions immediately.  Both entered the police force age 18 - as did my friends husband.  Even if the rules have changed, 2/3 of your salary as a pension after only 25 years is a huge amout more than most people on a 40/80ths scheme get - especially when you consider it's paid from a much earlier age. 

The point I'm making is that a lot of the 'inactifs' I'm sure, will have similar backgrounds, early retirement from comfortable government jobs on a nice big pension (compared to the income of many French), with plenty of proceeds from the sale of a house in the UK - if not a lump sum invested the enough to be mortgage free.  Its not suprised the French feel agrieved.  No 'inactif' is without healthcare - as groslard said already -  you just have to move back to the UK. 

[/quote]

To qualify for a 2/3rd's police pension you have to pay in for 30 years. When I retired from the police, 10 years ago, aged 49, I was contributing 11% of my salary - maybe it's more now.. You cannot retire with less than 25 years service (except on grounds of ill-health) and if you do go at 25 years you will receive 1/2 of your final salary but this is NOT payable immediately. Both amounts are obviously reduced if the retiree chooses to take a lump sum - most do. Before I joined the police, I was aware of the pension arrangements as they stood, what I would pay in and what I would receive. If I have a 'nice big pension' it's because I paid for it and I will be quite willing to explain to any 'agrieved' French person - and any envious British person - what I had to do, and what I had to pay, in order to receive it.

[groslard]

[quote user="Maggie"]

If I have a 'nice big pension' it's because I paid for it and I will be quite willing to explain to any 'agrieved' French person - and any envious British person - what I had to do, and what I had to pay, in order to receive it.

[/quote]

I don't think that personal details of pensions etc has anything to do with the debate.

I am sure you paid what you had to and get what you have paid for.

We were discussing a Europe-wide system for health care in which everybody pays in the same way, and is entitled to the same benefits.

Unfortunately as I pointed out above it was UK MPs who blocked this plan, and as Will pointed out it would mean that Britain would have to change the basis of the NHS

At the moment it is unfair that retired people in other countries continue to pay social security contributions towards their E121s , and British pensioners don't.

That is the sort of anomaly that needs to be addressed if we are to see 'equal treatment' for everybody.

[Russethouse]

http://globalpensions.com/showPage.html?page=gp_display_news&tempPageId=659752

I think that most people might consider paying NI on their pension if they were not the worst pensions in Europe.

As for the the NHS changing I suggest it will be a cold day in hell before any political party adopted this idea.

Remember groslard, whatever your views, it is the French government who have renagued on the deal by changing the goal posts after people have commited there lives and futures to France, and no, they cannot just pop back to the Uk for healthcare, they are not resident.

Perhaps you would not be so keen to promote the idea that you can just sell up a couple of years after moving if it was you involved. Have you any idea of the financial ramifications? All because France could not legislate properly in the first place. Please remember also that these people are prepared to pay, they are not trying to get away with anything.

And Scooby, if you think all the people who move to France on a pension are so well off - stick arounds for a few months, I think you will find that you are wrong.