Procedures re. death in France

[Cadeby]

This is a sensitive, serious question, so please respond if you can be of any assistance.

My father-in-law who is suffering from bowel/liver cancer is staying with us for a weeks holiday.  This morning he lapsed into a coma and was taken into hospital at Angers. He is not expected to recover and therefore we are expecting to have to deal with his death in the next couple of days.

We have no idea what the procedures are for this in France. Presumably the hospital will issue a death certificate?

Is the body then kept at the hospital morgue until we appoint an Undertaker?

How easy is it to arrange cremation in France - many friends seem to think this is difficult as the French prefer burial.

Presumably repatriation of a body to the UK is phenomally expensive ? I would imagine lead-lined coffins are called for and a mountain of paperwork? Does anyone know of any companies that provide this service ?

Thanks in anticipation...

 

[hastobe]

I believe there is a section on the British Embassy in France's website

that gives advice and information on what to do in these circumstances

- but the website seems to be down at the moment.

(www.britishembassy.gov.uk) - the foreign and commonwealth website has

some information (www.fco.gov.uk) and that seems to working ok. 

From the information there it seems that they will put you into contact

with people (lawyers, undertakers etc etc) but cannot cover any

expenses incurred other than maybe offer a loan in exceptional

circumstances.  I am guessing,

given his condition, that your father did not have travel

insurance? 

I'm sorry I can't give you nuch information but wanted

to let you know we were thinking about you.

Kathie (aka Hastobe)

[vervialle]

First of all may I say how sorry I am to hear of your sad situation,if you need a good lawyer who speaks perfect english I have one ,he is really nice and so helpful, he is placed in Limoges which should not be to far from you. Pleas PM me if you would like his name and address.I would also go to the clerk at the marie, they will know all the procedures and will find out for you officially if they dont know about the english complication.I hope this helps a little.God Bless.

[Patf]

What a sad situation - and difficult. If I was you I would get in touch

with your local Mairie asap - they should know what to do, or at least

know who to contact. There are often cremations in our area by the way,

it's not so unusual. Ask at the hospital too. Bon Courage - Pat.

[Tresco]

Cadeby,

I'm so sorry this has happened. As with the previous poster, I have never dealt with this myself, but friends have.

Cremation is still unusual, but not difficult at all under these circumstances.

The only possible difficulty I can think of  is if he has children other than your husband, and they disagree. I know my friends were asked about this, but no problem arose. They had a cremation followed or preceeded by a fairly non religious 'service' of some kind, but that was only because the person had made friends here after many holidays. The cost of repatriating the body was deemed extortionate, but I think a similar service was held later in England for the very elderly persons remaining friends and family.

Contact an Undertaker and they should  know exactly what to do and where to go.

Edit: Sorry we all seemed to post at the same time there.

[Anton Redman]

Cremation in France is now relatively easy  The only difficulty versus the UK is that unlike the UK the undertakers do not have a rosta of  protestant 'tame' ministers.Against this the cremetoria are more than happy if anybody gives a reading. If you want to return the ashes to the UK I suspect you should explain this to the doctor and get a second signature on the death certificate as you will probably need it for the export certificate.

[Tony F Dordogne]

If you need details of Protestante, ie, Anglican rather than Eglise Reformee Ministers, pm me and I can put you in touch with the appropriate people.

[zeb]

Hello Cadeby - just to say that when a death occurs, the hospital will inform you of the immediate procedures and issue death certificates (you'll need several). Obviously the Maire has to be informed.

A friend of ours died tragically last year and the hospital arranged for their local undertaker who then took over and arranged cremation. The body was kept in the chapel of rest at the undertakers prior to cremation where visits were welcome, day and night. Although cremation isn't as popular as in the UK, there are crematoria in most large towns and it's becoming more and more usual, and normally takes places three or four days after death. Our nearest are in Angouleme, Limoges and Poitiers. You can have the sort of service you prefer, (our friend didn't have a religeous ceremony, just family and friends speaking and also her favourite music). The Maire gave the family a plot in the village cemetary and her ashes were buried there (another service) but they could've been taken back to the UK. Travel insurance covers repatriation.

The hospital and undertaker will guide you.

[Cadeby]

Many thanks for your helpful comments. My father-in-law has not yet died, but since death is going to be inevitable we will probably go along the lines of a French Undertaker arranging a French cremation, then inter the ashes on our French farm which he loved.

Helen. 

[Russethouse]

We are thinking of you Helen, I'm so sorry.

[Hagar]

Helen,

I do feel for you at what must be a very difficult time.

When my father died suddenly in France, cremation locally was an option but in the end we decided to repatriate the body. The local undertaker (pompes funèbres) made all the arrangements to get the body to Scotland and an undertaker from my father's home town arranged to clear it/collect it at the aiprort and made all the funeral arrangements from there on.

Although it was all very fraught at the time the whole process was relatively straightforward. There was no direct involvement with the local Mairie or any other french authorities. The repatration costs were around 4,000 pounds (yes they do need a specially lined coffin - zinc rather than lead) plus the normal funeral costs at the Scottish end. This was 8 years ago.

The one significant problem we had was with the French death certificate. The French don't declare cause of death on the certificate and the British apparently require this. This caused a delay in clearing the body through Edinburgh airport. We resolved this by getting the British Consul in Marseille to fax an endorsement to the authorities in Edinburgh.

Only other problem was that the "pompes funèbres" could not accept payment by credit card and nobody in the family had a french bank account at that time. After a couple of calls to our respective banks  in the UK to clear it, my brother and I made 28 (yes twenty-eight!) trips to the cash point drawing out 990 francs each time ! - We laugh about it now.

Hope that is of some help

Hagar

 

[Val_2]

A client of ours died suddenly here at her holiday home and her husband wanted to take her body back to the UK. As the french do not put cause of death on any paperwork the british authorities insisted on a full post mortem to find the cause which gave more grief to the family before they could have her cremated. Another point to remember is that in France it is very unusual to hold up any sort of funeral for more than five days so you need to inform any close family members that they may miss out depending on the pompes funerbres concerned. You can hold a funeral service in the local church if you wish, I arranged one for a friend here and although it is mandatory to have at least three catholic parts read out,we were allowed to choose any sort of music we liked and to have folks step up and talk,it was very civilised. You can also have an Obseques Civile held in the local village hall or such a building where no religion at all takes place and its just the maire if you know him well and the family who do the speaking. We sprinkled rose petals on the coffin on the way out and had typical french pop music at the one I went to locally. I do wish you well and know from the same sort of  experience with my MIL how hard life is currently for those "waiting" for a peaceful end.

[Coco]

First of all Cadeby, I'm sorry to hear of your family's predicament.  It's not a pleasant thing to happen to anyone and I hope your husband is coping OK.  Without wishing to hjack the thread I am interested in Val's point

[quote user="Val_2"]You can hold a funeral service in the local church if you wish, I arranged one for a friend here and although it is mandatory to have at least three catholic parts read out,we were allowed to choose any sort of music we liked and to have folks step up and talk,it was very civilised. You can also have an Obseques Civile held in the local village hall or such a building where no religion at all takes place and its just the maire if you know him well and the family who do the speaking. .[/quote]

Both my mum and step-dad live here.  My step-dad believes that when you die you should be burnt, preferably on a bonfire in the garden, so that no one incurs any costs, and has no religious beliefs.  To the extent that he would HATE to have to have any catholic rituals at his interment.  My mum, on the other hand, is quite a believer, though certainly not catholic.  Are you saying Val, that you HAVE to have catholic bits in the ceremony if you want to have a church service?  Can you just have the Obseques Civile without a  church service?

Obviously I'm hoping that this is information to be stored up for a long time in the future, but you do find that older people start asking these sort of questions, so it would be well to be fore-warned if my mum starts delving.

 

[Val_2]

The man who died, a f riend of ours, had his funeral held here in the village church which is Catholic only. However, the curé for this area,now since moved on, was very kind and allowed the widow and daughter to hold his funeral there. I had to step in and sort it out because they don't speak french enough to get through and apart from three obligatory parts of the catholic obséques service we were very much allowed to do what we liked within reason. The curé himself had a selection of music from classical to near pop and he himself chose the music the little band played from the film "A night to remember"when the Titanic was sinking and it was the last few minutes and sitting there in complete silence with just this music playing really made us all feel more relaxed. Our friend was then taken to the crem at Carhaix a good hour away but NO ONE went along and at 6.15pm on the dot, the undertakers returned with him in his pot and a velvet covered log of exactly what happened for the widow to keep and for us to sign.

The obséques civile is for those who are atheists and in the case I went to, the man was a local longstanding communist party member and didn't hold with religion. The whole village tried to cram into the hall,it was so hot in there and very quickly it was over with no religion,no prayers and certainly no curé.I spoke with several elderly people who said it was the first one they could remember being held like that but then here,superstition about the after life seems to commit 99% of the Bretons to the full monty of a funeral and burial. If you wish a civil service, the best person to talk to is the secretary at the local mairie who can assist you with the paperwork and permission etc but you will still need the undertakers to transport the body about. I for one, would prefer the low key affair,I never feel easy in churches wherever they are and feel it hypocrytical to suddenly become all religious.

[Loiseau]

My thoughts are very much with you, Helen, and your husband...

My sister-in-law's French-Canadian mother died suddenly last year when they were staying with me in the Vendee. As it was not a death in hospital, I have no specific advice to offer on that count.

However, the family in Canada did decide on a cremation in France and then on taking the ashes back to Canada.

We did have the local Catholic priest come along and say a few well-chosen words beside the coffin before leaving the undertaker's. As the lady had been Catholic and purely French-speaking, this seemed the appropriate thing.  But seemingly that was rather unusual, and he came along very much in mufti to do it. The family intended to have a memorial service back in Canada where all the friends and relations were. 

The crematorium bit was entirely up to us.  The Vendee has only recently had its own crematorium, so it is very modern and pleasant - more like an intimate theatre space, with thick carpeting, and seating in rows on stylish wooden seats. A friend had warned me that if you don't organise your own ceremony (perhaps with favourite music, people speaking about the person etc), there would be nothing at all happening.  In the event, the director of the crematorium acted as a sort of discreet MC, speaking quietly to prompt us to take up the little bunches of wild flowers that we wanted to place on the coffin. (I think it was his wayof getting the ceremony moving along on schedule, but he didn't make you aware of that.)

Later that day the undertaker brought the ashes to the house, as requested, in a wooden casket with an inscribed metal plate. Some paperwork was required to accompany the ashes, which I think was supplied by the undertaker (though apparently no one looked at it at all on the way into Canada).

If you wished to have an Anglican service, I am sure it could be arranged. I tried to find out if there was an Anglican Fellowship around Angers, which I believe is where you are, Helen, but drew a blank.
There is one for Poitou-Charentes-Vendée though, and they state :
"All pastoral or sacramental services (baptisms, marriages, funerals etc) offered normally by a church are available through the Chaplaincy. "

I am sure the Vendee vicar would point you in the right direction for finding someone near you, if it is too far away for him to cover himself. Send me a PM if you would like me to give you his phone number and email address.

Angela

 

[Cadeby]

My father-in-law passed away very peacefully on Tuesday. Many thanks for your advice and good wishes.

Since we have now gone through the procedure relating to a death in hospital, I thought it might be useful to list the procedures involved as we have found them.  It may assist any future forum members who encounter this situation :

Shortly after dying, the medecin who had been caring for my FIL issued a "CERTIFICAT DE DECES." The cause of death is listed by the Doctor and the certificate acts as a release of the body from the jurisdiction of the hospital to an Undertaker, once the family have appointed the latter.

A Post-Mortem was not necessary as the death had occurred in a hospital from a known cause ( the French medical staff had previously contacted the Oncology Unit in the UK for precise details of my FIL's illness )

The body was then taken to the  Hospital's  "Service Funeraire" ( basically a morgue, allbeit a nice one! ) together with the Certificat de Deces.

We spoke to the Director of the Service Funeraire and were asked to provide a copy of my FIL's Birth Certificate, Passport, & Address details. We were then given a list of private Undertakers from which we chose a firm closest to our home address in France.

The following day, the Certificat de Deces was sent by the hospital's own courier service to the Hotel de Ville in the town where the death occurred ( in this case Angers ). This document is confidential and sealed and the next-of-kin do NOT  receive a copy. Only the staff at the Mairie are allowed to open it.

We then went in person to the Hotel de Ville and applied for an ACTE DE DECES - the equivalent of a UK Death Certificate. We asked for several copies and were given 15 - all free of charge. All of the details were quite understandibly in French, so we also asked for copies "plurielingue", ie. multilingual - and received a further 15 copies this time with an english translation ( plus Italian, German, Spanish, Russian, etc, etc....)

We then went in person to the local  Undertaker and he telephoned through to the Crematorium to book a date and time for the cremation.However, because my mother-in-law has flown back to the UK and cannot return to France within the 6 day period normally allowed for a funeral, the Undertaker has to contact the Prefecture to ask for a special dispensation - in this case to hold the funeral 10 days after the date of death.

The Undertaker will also inform the crematorium staff that we wish to take the ashes to England by plane. The Crematorium should then provide us with the ashes in a sealed canister, plus the necessary paperwork to clear the ashes through customs, if challenged.

We have chosen not to have any form of service - but an anglican minister could have been appointed if we had so wished. We are also allowed to play music on the CD player at the crematorium if we wish.

Throughout the whole process, all of the officials we have encountered have been extremely helpful. I can speak reasonable French, which obviously assists, but the British Consulate in Paris can guide you through the process and will offer to talk to the hospital / undertakers / Mairie if you need help.

 

[Tresco]

Hello

That must have been hard for you, but thanks so much for taking the time and trouble to describe the process as you experienced it. It's something none of us really thinks about until the worst happens, I imagine, and your post will definitely help other people.

I'm so sorry this has happened. You must all be so upset.

I hope everything else goes smoothly for you.