health care

[cooperlola]

I am still wondering if I'm being dense.  The document which everybody here is quoting from:

 THIS ONE

Seems to me to say AT THE TOP - by which I personally assumed it applied to the entire document, not just the first bits - that this applied only to people coming to France once the new legislation and documentation is in place.  This to me, may explain why the mairies and prefectures aren't up and running yet, and are still quoting current mantras. I suspect that once the documentation for new residents is finalised, then we may get more sensible responses from the French authorities for existing ones too, as it will then be clearer to the prefectures et al that existing residents have a right to demand a t de s permanent.

[Will]

That's the point I am trying to make, BAF. In that I do agree with the CPAM official, the five year rule gives non-nationals the same rights as French nationals, it is not, per se, an entry into CMU. If an equivalent French national will get health care via CMU then so should you. If a French national in your position would have to rely on private assurance, then so will you.

[Deimos]

The other aspect as Will mentions is if

anybody knows where it says (in the French regulations) that French

citizens in the same ("inactif") situation are allowed to

subscribe to the CMU. I assume they are and that there are

regulations that say so as everybody says that the reason everybody

was forced into the CMU previously was because of the way the

regulations were phrased. People say it was badly written and thus

included all those "inactifs" it was not intended to catch.

Cynic that I am, I suspect that the

French will quite happily ignore the EU regulations that do not suit

them. It will thus probably take action by the EU to enforce their

regulations - I doubt that individuals would have much success when

facing French bureaucracy.

What I do find interesting is the

difference in attitude of officials people are experiencing. Some

time since I've had to deal with UK officials but seems there were a

lot more helpful than the French are being. Almost reflects the

difference in the law systems (i.e. Napoleonic is France). They

really are taking "the citizen serves the state" rather

than "the state serves the citizen" attitude (probably a

general observation and nothing specific to the health issues).

Ian

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

I am still wondering if I'm being dense.  The document which everybody here is quoting from:

 THIS ONE

Seems to me to say AT THE TOP - by which I personally assumed it applied to the entire document, not just the first bits - that this applied only to people coming to France once the new legislation and documentation is in place.  This to me, may explain why the mairies and prefectures aren't up and running yet, and are still quoting current mantras. I suspect that once the documentation for new residents is finalised, then we may get more sensible responses from the French authorities for existing ones too, as it will then be clearer to the prefectures et al that existing residents have a right to demand a t de s permanent.

[/quote]

 

My interpretation is slightly different to Coop's.  I took it that the bit 'at the top'

Enregistrement des citoyens européens en mairie

L'obligation d'enregistrement en mairie des citoyens de l'Union européenne, d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen et suisses s'applique aux seules personnes entrées en France après l'entrée en vigueur d'un arrêté qui doit fixer le modèle de l'attestation d'enregistrement délivrée. 

 

Cet arrêté, conjoint des ministres de l'intérieur et des affaires sociales, n'a pas encore été publié. 

 

Nos fiches l'intégreront dès sa parution. 

referred to the OBLIGATION to report.  I took this to refer to the new obligation created by the introduction of the rules on sickness insurance.... i.e. this bit

Formalités à l'installation en France

Les citoyens de l'UE et assimilés, qui souhaitent s'installer en France, doivent être munis d'une carte d'identité ou d'un passeport en cours de validité. Dans les trois mois suivant leur arrivée, ils doivent se faire enregistrer auprès du maire de leur commune de résidence, sous peine d'amende. 

Whereas the bit about permanent residence doesn't create an obligation as it says

Carte de séjour permanent 

Les citoyens qui ont acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France peuvent demander la délivrance d'une carte de séjour "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. 

Cette carte, dont la possession n'est pas obligatoire, est renouvelable de plein droit. 

 

BUT...who knows???

[makfai]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

It is all very well saying print out the legislation and apply for your titre de sejour but one then has to deal with the French bureaucracy.

Realising that a new titre de sejour would perhaps come in handy and with my old one about to expire I trotted off last week  to the mairie armed with print outs of the actual legislation

I was met with a firm but polite NON

I insisted and the secretary telephoned the Prefecture and she was met with a NON from the prefecture.We do not issue titre de sejour,s to EU citizens.

The legislation was produced but it was still a polite NON.

I said that I may be asked by CPAM to prove I had been here more than 5 years that was why I wanted a titre de Sejour.

The reply was that no French Govt dept has the right to demand a titre de sejour from an EU citizen.

And yesterday when being informed that I only had until 31st March next year for cover the CPAM rep was not even interested in my titre de sejour .It was a straight everyone who is not working will need private health assurance it matters not a jot how long one has been in France.    

[/quote]

 

I do sympathise with you regarding local 'brickwalls' but the only answer to this is put it in writing and fire it up the line.

[Tony F Dordogne]

And it's not only the French that ignore EU regulations, every country does it to a greater or lesser extent - Spain and Greece on health care, UK on a wide range of issues including the rights of immigrants from EU countries - so it's not something French specific or particularly anti-British, just the way that it is.

 

[Will]

At least in Britain's case, it's not so much a question of ignoring, as being specifically written out of the EU treaties - especially with regard to employment law and what are considered matters of sovereignty, such as the single European currency. I am sure that the comment about rights of EU immigrants in Britain will raise a few wry smiles - as well as puffs of indignation from the tabloid readers. But I agree - that's the way it is.

EU law, like French law, is full of get-out clauses. Health care, for example, can be organised as the member state wishes. It only falls foul of EU law if it can be firmly established that a bona-fide resident from another EU state does not receive the same treatment as a national - and in some of those cases the state systems are so poor - or they contribute such a small percentage of the cost - that few nationals or immigrants use them anyway, so the argument is academic. Which is why the present controversy over the French system, which is accepted as good and up to now has been virtually compulsory, is so fascinating - or iniquitous, depending on your position.

 

[Boiling a frog]

This is a response I have received by email from one of the Scottish MEP's

Thank you for your recent email regarding the French Government’s decision to restrict access to free health and social security benefits. As I understand the proposal, it would cover not only foreign residents in France but French nationals too and it does not affect people who have retired at retirement age and are living in France. President Sarkozy apparently said that he had no objection to people retiring early but they could not expect French taxpayers to pay for them to do so.

 

These new French rules differ from those in the UK, where non-British citizens permanently residing in the UK are eligible for the same free NHS treatment as British citizens even if they are non-active. However, the same principle applies for retirees in both countries; as soon as someone becomes eligible for a pension then they are covered by their country of origin rather than country of residence when it comes to health and social security benefits.

 

I have written to the European Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection, Markos Kyprianou, about your concerns. The EU rules on this matter state that non-nationals residing in any EU country must be treated in exactly the same way as that country's nationals. I have asked Mr Kyprianou to investigate whether the new French rules infringe this principle. I shall contact you again as soon as I receive his response.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

John Purvis

Member of the European Parliament for Scotland.

 

 

 

So it appears that if French inactives are excluded so are we .The big question is: 

Does this legislation exist because I cannot find it.

I await  my reply from the European Health Commissioner   

[Russethouse]

Am I right in thinking that should French inactifs also be excluded from the system it would at least make a more attractive proposition for those Private Health insurance companies who would possibly fill the void ?

[cooperlola]

Will is right in that there isn't a huge percentage of the French population in the CMU as it is a "catch all" system for those not covered by other schemes which are mainly employment related.  However, there is absolutely no evidence so far (beyond the anecdotal and mis-informed) to suggest that the CMU is to be withdrawn from French nationals also.  It would certainly leave those French nationals who work in and contribute to other EU member states' health schemes in an iniquitous position as they would have no access to healthcare in their own country either, should they return having retired early from careers elsewhere. As I feel sure your MEP will discover, BaF. But that is not to say that M. Sarkozy isn't tempted to try it.

The CMU's information pages have not been altered in any way, and still read as they always did, insofar as entry qualifications are concerned.  To abolish it would take new statutes and one can be sure the French media would have been reporting this if it were the case, even given that the actual numbers of people who would be affected are relatively small.

Undoubtedly though, R/H, the insurance industry could offer better policies, if the numbers went up.

[makfai]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

This is a response I have received by email from one of the Scottish MEP's

Thank you for your recent email regarding the French Government’s decision to restrict access to free health and social security benefits. As I understand the proposal, it would cover not only foreign residents in France but French nationals too and it does not affect people who have retired at retirement age and are living in France. President Sarkozy apparently said that he had no objection to people retiring early but they could not expect French taxpayers to pay for them to do so.

 

These new French rules differ from those in the UK, where non-British citizens permanently residing in the UK are eligible for the same free NHS treatment as British citizens even if they are non-active. However, the same principle applies for retirees in both countries; as soon as someone becomes eligible for a pension then they are covered by their country of origin rather than country of residence when it comes to health and social security benefits.

 

I have written to the European Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection, Markos Kyprianou, about your concerns. The EU rules on this matter state that non-nationals residing in any EU country must be treated in exactly the same way as that country's nationals. I have asked Mr Kyprianou to investigate whether the new French rules infringe this principle. I shall contact you again as soon as I receive his response.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

John Purvis

Member of the European Parliament for Scotland.

 

So it appears that if French inactives are excluded so are we .The big question is: 

Does this legislation exist because I cannot find it.

I await  my reply from the European Health Commissioner   

[/quote]

 

Sorry Mr Purvis...need to go back to school I think!

 

The change does not affect French Nationals because it is in the law to do with 'immigration'...nationals don't 'immigrate'.  In addition, as Coops said, there has not been an amendment to healthcare for the French...it is an amendment to the qualification criteria for residence for 'EU Citizens'. 

 

It also applies in the UK so wrong again Mr Purvis. I suggest you may wish to draw his attention to the following three pieces of legislation which cover the subject.  The first applies to the UK (but who knows why it is not applied?) and the other two to France

 

• ‘Statutory Instrument 2006 No. 1003 The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006’.[1] 

 

• ‘LOI no 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 relative à l’immigration et à l’intégration’[2] and

 

• ‘Décret n° 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007 relatif au droit de séjour en France des citoyens de l'Union européenne, des ressortissants des autres Etats parties à l'Espace économique européen et de la Confédération suisse ainsi que des membres de leur famille’[3]

---

[1] http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm#13

[2] http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/imagesJOE/2006/0725/joe_20060725_0170_0001.pdf

[3] http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnTexteDeJorf?numjo=INTD0700061D

 

 

 

[Glyn]

I think these replies just demonstrate the ignorance of some of our elected representatives.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Glyn"]I think these replies just demonstrate the ignorance of some of our elected representatives.[/quote]Ain't that the truth?  As I learn more and more every day this goes on.[:-))]

[Chris]

I wish we could scotch these stupid ideas that it is free healthcare.  We ( those whose who have paid cotisations to URSSAF),  have paid towards our healthcare.  We are not asking for free anything!  We want to continue paying and getting healthcare in return!  It is not free in UK either, unless you cannot pay, as in France!! 

Politicians need jumping on generally, but please, please jump on them hard if they continue to misrepresent the problem as Sarko removing free healthcare for Brits below retiring age. 

Rant over!

Chris

[bill k]

no there is nothing for contesting it and yes i have tax returns since 200 and a carte de sejour. this unfortunately ran out and i have been unable to renew it. I was told at my marie and the prefecteur that they are no longer issued as the are not required by EU citizens.

[cooperlola]

I make this point, Chris,  in letters to parliamentary representatives on a daily basis now.  Head and brick wall spring to mind (you should see the bruises!) but we just have to keep tapping away.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="bill k"]no there is nothing for contesting it and yes i have tax returns since 200 and a carte de sejour. this unfortunately ran out and i have been unable to renew it. I was told at my marie and the prefecteur that they are no longer issued as the are not required by EU citizens.[/quote]Bill, if your CPAM refuse to cover you and you have 5 years' residence, then there is a draft letter here which you can send to your local office:

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/lobbying/lobbying_letters_6.htm

If you receive an outright refusal, we would be grateful if we could see it, too, for ammunition purposes.

[email protected]

[Will]

Some of these MEPs seem to be of the opinion that French inactifs would be treated similarly. I quite agree that if this was so, it would at least remove one very big area of uncertainlty and open up the French market to private insurers, as has happened in Spain and various other countries. However, it is far from cut and dried, and it seems that for Sarko to withdraw cover for any bona-fide French living on private means and already affiliated to the CMU could be somewhat questionable under European law to say the least.

The lack of knowledge shown by MEPs of all colours is rather alarming. Though none go so far as the total lack of grasp of how the NHS works by one quoted here a few weeks ago,who was a former senior government minister, so should have some idea.

[cooperlola]

A bit scary, isn't it, Will, when you think about it?

[Clair]

[quote user="makfai"][quote user="cooperlola"]I am still wondering if I'm being dense.  The document which everybody here is quoting from:

 THIS ONE

Seems to me to say AT THE TOP - by which I personally assumed it applied to the entire document, not just the first bits - that this applied only to people coming to France once the new legislation and documentation is in place.  This to me, may explain why the mairies and prefectures aren't up and running yet, and are still quoting current mantras. I suspect that once the documentation for new residents is finalised, then we may get more sensible responses from the French authorities for existing ones too, as it will then be clearer to the prefectures et al that existing residents have a right to demand a t de s permanent.[/quote]

My interpretation is slightly different to Coop's.  I took it that the bit 'at the top' [...] referred to the OBLIGATION to report. [...] BUT...who knows???[/quote]

For what it's worth, I too am reading this top section to refer only to the obligation to register at the mairie.

[cooperlola]

I obviously put  my point badly.  I do not disagree that the obligation will only be to new residents.  However, my feeling was that perhaps, as this section is not yet within law, then maybe the following stuff about a present permanent resident being able (not obliged) to demand a permanent t de s - is not appreciated at local level yet.  In fact, I thought that's what I had said!

[Clair]

Apologies, I clearly misunderstood.

My experience (on behalf of Mr Clair) has been that my préfecture (Lot - 46) have not volonteered the availability of the TdS, indeed they have suggested that it was unnecessary, but when pressed, have agreed they had to supply one if it was requested.

It could well be that they find it more difficult to fob off a clearly French-sounding person or it could be thay they are simply more helpful here...[8-)]

[cooperlola]

I am sure that being a real virtual French person must help a bit Clair!

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="bill k"]no there is nothing for contesting it and yes i have tax returns since 200 and a carte de sejour. this unfortunately ran out and i have been unable to renew it. I was told at my marie and the prefecteur that they are no longer issued as the are not required by EU citizens.[/quote]Bill, if your CPAM refuse to cover you and you have 5 years' residence, then there is a draft letter here which you can send to your local office:

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/lobbying/lobbying_letters_6.htm

If you receive an outright refusal, we would be grateful if we could see it, too, for ammunition purposes.

[email protected]

[/quote]

 

Bill  and anyone else

Can I also suggest that you use this process http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/submission/index_en.htm 

Dead easy and you can use English

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]I obviously put  my point badly.  I do not disagree that the obligation will only be to new residents.  However, my feeling was that perhaps, as this section is not yet within law, then maybe the following stuff about a present permanent resident being able (not obliged) to demand a permanent t de s - is not appreciated at local level yet.  In fact, I thought that's what I had said![/quote]

 

Sorry to come back on this but it is 'within law': it was passed into law last year and published by decree this year. This is purely an admin measure to tell people in that category that they need not go to the mairie.

The option of obtaining the Carte de sejour permanent is not affected by that admin measure....IMHO