taboo to discuss life after death?

[just john]

Death is this thy sting?

Wishing to be positive I have found myself in the position of looking for life after death here on earth. More specifically in France, as on this forum, since France is my preferred place. Whilst being aware that it is a very personal thing and not looking for the Macmillan 45 degree tilt of the head, I assumed I would find discussion on experiences and life changes amongst widows, widowers and others suffering loss but have found little. Most understanding is in others who have had the same experience and least with embarrassed 'move on' phrases from well wishers. as Terry would say 'Is it me'? over to you . . . .

[Cat]

John, when I first read you post, I thought that you were looking for evidence of "life after death" in the spiritual sense.  But on second reading I think perhaps you are talking about your own life, after the death of Sue?

It is still much to early for you to "move on", as others may have implied.  Losing Sue must still be very fresh in you heart and your memory, and it is natural that you should seek help from others who have experienced a similar loss.  Until you find that help here in France, have you thought of joining the UK National Association of Widows and Widowers? 

Although not France related, they do have a private forum. http://www.nawidows.org.uk/forum.html   

There is also the Cruse organisation, but they don't appear to have a forum http://www.crusebereavementcare.org.uk/

Personally, I don't believe in a life after death, in the terms that I first thought that you meant.  But I do believe that loved ones live on in our hearts minds and memory.

 

 

[Catalpa]

What are you hoping to talk about? [:)] From your sentence "I assumed I would find discussion on experiences and life changes

amongst widows, widowers and others suffering loss but have found

little." I'm thinking you are looking for experiences of how people come to terms with loss, how they find a way to assimilate the loss into themselves but still find a way to take pleasure in life again? Or am I wrong? My other interpretation is that you'd be interested in a debate the possibility of life after death, whether the spirit goes on...?

Edit:

I see Cathy saw the same possibilities.

[cooperlola]

I think it's very difficult for some people to talk about these things on an open forum as they don't want to give too much personal information away, when they're not sure who might be reading.

I imagine there are a number of people on here who have lost close family members and partners but who don't really want to discuss this with everybody.

But I think they would probably all agree with one thing - it does get better as time goes along (whatever your beliefs about what's actually happened to the person who is dead), in spite of what you may feel when it happens.

Cat's idea of joining a forum specific to this subject seems a good one to me, as those on there may be a little more open than on here.

I'll PM you.

[Patf]

John - reading your posts recently I realised you are struggling to continue on after your wife's death. Thank God I still have a husband, but in 2002, the year we came to France, the husbands of 3 of my closest friends over the years died. I think they were all sort of shell-shocked for ages afterwards. They seemed unable to make any decisions about changes to lifestyle etc. I imagine it's very hard to change from being a supportive partner to just considering yourself. Do you have any chidren?

You might not agree with this, but there's a programme on Sky TV called Crossing Over with John Edward, who is able to talk about death and bereavement in a way that seems to bring great comfort to many people. He's religious, catholic I think, but can talk about his religious views in a down to earth way.

Hoping you find the support you need to work through your sadness and confusion. Pat.

[just john]

I thought the 'here on earth' gave it away; I can't go with that kind of spiritual, although of course people live on in everyones memory; the problem of talking in cliches I guess,
just to be clearer, how have other widow/ers reshaped their lives?,
where do they go? did they follow the plan, buy a Harley or run off to Cuba? or what?
Personally I eschew the 'help' organisations, I did not have favourable experiences with ''do-gooders'' during Sue's illness. It seemed to me that ticking boxes was priority, it was all so PC, real listening was not in their vocabulary and 'support' was what they wanted to do, not what sue needed.
were others experiences more favourable? has anyone used the UK widows forum, does it have any bearing on a social life in France for widow/ers?
as I said, I value the experience of others in the same situation here in France.
(in a good happy way[8-|])

[Kitty]

I wonder how many people have been touched by death?  Now that families are smaller and with our society being so dislocated?  Perhaps that is why people do not often talk about it?

I've helped with bereavement counselling and everyone's experience is different.  The hardest is for those who lose someone that they see every day.  Which is why sometimes people can be more affected by the death of a neighbour than a relative.

Whatever anyone's experiences are, it's the most painful thing to endure.  And shame on anyone who thinks that one should get over it.  You never do.  You just learn to live with the pain - sort of.

 

 

 

[Catalpa]

[quote user="now just john "]

I thought the 'here on earth' gave it away;

[/quote]

I just thought it was too important a subject not to make sure I understood what you meant. Because yes, you're right, people do find it difficult to talk about death and the aftermath - either because they're plain embarassed because they don't know what to say and are scared of hitting the wrong note... or perhaps because it thoroughly rubs their nose in the fact that they are not immortal. A fact we may choose not to face day-to-day. [:)]

My sister died 12 years ago, leaving behind 3 kids under

the age of 8. My parents were devastated. I thought they’d never come to terms

with their loss. They were in their 70s and I thought it would hasten their

deaths.

It didn’t happen overnight, but they gradually began to

take the same pleasure in the arrival of each day, each spring, each flower or

bright frosty morning as they had before she died. If anything, their

appreciation of life is sharpened because they’re painfully aware of how

fragile it can be. They are enormously appreciative of the years they’ve had

because they know my sister would have given anything to be where they are –

reasonably healthy, in their mid-80s and with grandchildren now in their late

teens.

They’ve found a way to make their sadness a part of who

they are. They laugh a lot – we laugh a lot about silly things that happened

when we were children at home and most importantly, we make sure that my

sister’s children are very aware of who she was and things that she did, where

she worked. What she accomplished. Which ties in with Cathy’s comment about

people living on in our memories of them.

Time

does heal. It softens pain and brings warm memories to the fore again rather

than sad ones. Passage of time doesn’t make one forget but after the first year

and the sadness of being able to think  “this

time last year” life does gradually find an even keel again. My

brother-in-law, who probably (and reasonably) took longest to come to terms

with his loss, married again a few years ago; my “step-sister-in-law” is a

total star – taking on 3 step-children isn’t an easy ride even if her position

wasn’t arrived at via a divorce – and she has been made a valued and loved part

of the family by my parents. 

These experiences and situations aren't yours, I know, but they do help prove, I hope, that the passage of time does help.

[Kitty]

This was posted today:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1192556/ShowPost.aspx

[KathyF]

John, I'd just written you a long response and lost it when trying to post. Here goes with my second attempt.

Catalpa's and Cathy's perceptive posts have given you a lot of pointers but I'd just like to add the following, from my personal experience of bereavement and from my former work with bereaved people as a vicar. Whatever you do, don't try to make important and life-changing decisions while your grief is still so raw and fresh. Learning to live as a single person again after so long as one half of a close and loving couple is a difficult and painful process and can take years, rather than months. Give yourself plenty of time and don't let others hurry you to do things you're not ready for.

Expect this first year after Sue's death to be expecially hard as you face her birthday, your birthday, your wedding anniversary and all the other special family and personal days for the first time without her. They can still hurt in subsequent years, but not so acutely, as you gradually adjust to your new way of living.

Don't let others stop you remembering and reminiscing about Sue and your life with her. Often people try to change the subject when the bereaved start to talk like this, in the mistaken belief that remembering will make you unhappy. Yes, it will sometimes make you unhappy, as you come face to face yet again with what you have lost, but it will also make you happy too, as you celebrate all the good times you shared. I realise that you don't believe in life after death in the spiritual sense, but whenever you remember Sue and your life together and share those memories with those who knew and love her, she will live on in you and in them.

Above all give yourself time to grieve, as much time as you need. I get very cross when people seem to treat bereavement like a dose of flu and often within the same kind of time-frame, expecting someone to 'get over it' and 'move on' within a ridiculously short space of time. If you truly love someone you never completely 'get over' losing them, you just learn to live with your new reality.

With all good wishes

Kathy

[Loiseau]

John, I am so sorry to hear about your loss, and can understand your desire to find people with whom to empathise.

My French neighbour, in a similar situation, joined a local "club de veufs et de veuves", which he has found very therapeutic.  Seemingly, they organise monthly rambles - and possibly other activities - followed by a meal (of course) and then sometimes dancing. He likes the fact that it is only open to those who have been widowed (rather than divorced), as he says everyone understands where you are coming from.
It may be too soon after your bereavement for you to consider something like that, but it could be worth bearing in mind

Might you draw comfort and companionship from a local church of some kind?  In case you feel this is a possibility, here is a link to Anglican ministries in France.

Best wishes

Angela

 

 

[Iceni]

I suspect that I am reluctant to discuss death for a number of reasons

1. B. Franklin's contention that it is one of life's 2 certainties so it is going to be my turn at some point (though I have argued that as it has not happened to me so far maybe it will not).

2. I never seem to know what to say and, being English and brought up in the era of the stiff upper lip, just mumble a bit and try to move away as quickly as possible without appearing too rude.

3. All the funerals that I have attended have been of people older than I am, parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts etc therefore sort of "expected" albeit ahead of "threescore years and ten" in some cases. How I would/will cope if Di or any of my/her children are involved remains to be seen - maybe I'll be lucky and it won't happen to me.

Any way, the summary of all of this, now just john, is don't ask me I have no idea. After my grandfather's funeral my father summed it up as follows - don't worry about him, there's nothing you can do for him one way or another so do your bit for those that are still here. Sadly I didn't have the forethought to ask what "my bit" should be and nearly 40 years on I am older but no wiser.

If you find an answer please pass it on.

John

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Iceni"]

2. I never seem to know what to say and, being English and brought up in the era of the stiff upper lip, just mumble a bit and try to move away as quickly as possible without appearing too rude.

[/quote]

And French people do what, exactly?   Oh hang on, they mumble "condoléances" and tell you not to cry.  Funny, really!

 

[just john]

Thanks everybody for your concern, genuinely, perhaps I should just leave it at this stage,
but me being me; though this is my last word on the subject. Promise.
Forgive me if the rest of what I have to say has the cotton wool removed.

Sometimes you want to hear from people who understand exactly without explanation.

I am trying to deal with my grief in my own way, in my own time, thank you. Sorry if it spills over I don't intend it to; the question is, 'cut to the chase' . . .

a) did your partner die
b) are you happy now
if the answer to the above is yes, what did you do between a and b,

feel free to pm or e-mail me (in a happy good way) [8-|]

Sincere apologies if that was a bit blunt