Long term Gardiennage - Health cover

[Housesitters]

Hi

I have been offered a long term Gardiennage position for a villa in the Cote d'Azur.  The French owners will employ me in return for gardening, security and upkeep of their property whilst they are away. They have said they will organise the paperwork for me to get into the French social security system entitling me and my wife to French health care, etc.

The question is, would it be better for my wife who is on long term IB, to get an E121 or to rely on the "family" cover my employment will entitle her to?

The reason I ask this, what if my employment comes to a premature end and we want to stay in France? I presume we would  no longer be covered, but I believe an E121 would cover us both, regardless of employment.

If I did get made unemployed, could we get back into the UK system if it all goes pear shaped and we end up back here? (hopefully not!) We will be keeping our UK home too.

Saying that, we are hoping to settle in France one day but want to cover all bases if possible.

I realise there are a few questions here and I am most probably trying to cover too many possibilities with one easy solution. However, any thoughts or advice appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[AnOther]

There are many here far more knowledgeable than I but here are a few thoughts for starters:[quote user="Housesitters"]I have been offered a long term Gardiennage position for a villa in the Cote d'Azur.  The French owners will employ me in return for gardening, security and upkeep of their property whilst they are away. They have said they will organise the paperwork for me to get into the French social security system entitling me and my wife to French health care, etc.[/quote]

You may still have to make a contribution plus need a health top up which could be quite costly so who is going to pay for that? No disrespect to the people offering you this opportunity, which sounds wonderful BTW, but I think you need to tread very carefully with such an arrangement and thoroughly understand, and confirm, exactly what you are getting into and have it down in writing.

[quote user="Housesitters"]The question is, would it be better for my wife who is on long term IB, to get an E121 or to rely on the "family" cover my employment will entitle her to?

The reason I ask this, what if my employment comes to a premature end and we want to stay in France? I presume we would  no longer be covered, but I believe an E121 would cover us both, regardless of employment.[/quote]

If your wife is over 60 then she would normally be entitled to an E121 which would normally cover you both but I'm not sure you can continue with IB past retirement age though can you? I think you need to get the numbers and see which works out best for you.

[quote user="Housesitters"]If I did get made unemployed, could we get back into the UK system if it all goes pear shaped and we end up back here? (hopefully not!) We will be keeping our UK home too.[/quote]

Yes, as far as I understand it if you return to UK with the intention of becoming resident again you should be covered by the NHS.

Hope some of this helps

[tinabee]

Read this cautionary tale

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49098

 

 

[Clair]

[quote user="tinabee"]Read this cautionary tale[/quote]

Interesting case, but it begs the question... why in the world would anyone work in these circumstances without a written contract? [blink]

[AnOther]

An unfortunate tale and probably not unique, so I say again..............

"tread very carefully with such an arrangement and

thoroughly understand, and confirm, exactly what you are getting into

and have it down in writing" [blink]

Having said that I had a friend, sadly now deceased, who spent several years in France in such employment. He was looked after and treated extremely well and when he suffered what turned out to be a fatal brain hemorrhage they couldn't do enough for him so its not all negative.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Clair"]why in the world would anyone work in these circumstances without a written contract? [blink][/quote]Not so hard to understand Clair. People get taken advantage of like this, and worse, even in their own country where they at least should have an understanding of what they are doing. Offer such folk the obvious temptation of an exotic job as described and common sense and caution can fly completely out of the window.

If you think about it in some ways it's not so much different to the Brits who just seem wake up one morning and decide to move to France having done little or no meaningful research and then come a cropper because they can't find a job or can't get health cover etc. etc.

As unkind as it is to say a disappointing proportion of the public can be pretty dumb and lacking in nous, just look how many are STILL falling for Phishing scams and eMails from deposed African dictators with squillions in hidden bank accounts for instance [:'(]

[Housesitters]

Hi Ernie, Clair and Tinabee. Thanks for your speedy response. This Forum really is good at times.

The cautionary tale is indeed very interesting. Thanks for the link, good stuff. The idea of payment in return for accomodation is the same situation as myself. ie. live in the tied house but with full use of the Villa. 

However, in my case, the French owners have said there will be a written contract, which I should be recieving before we go. The contract will state the number of hours to be worked/week, which they say will be enough to cover the cost of the social security contributions without any additional payment from myself. I believe it to be around 15 hrs/week. I will be looking at getting a Mutuel as top up for us both. Do you have any recommendations, bearing in mind we both need repeat prescriptions as neither of us are "fighting fit" anymore? When did our bodies become high maintenance and why didn't anyone warn us this would happen when we were young? LOL

We have known the owners for a couple of years now, after house sitting their other home, and they are very nice people. We have been house sitters for various people in France over several years now but not for such a long duration that requires this sort of consideration. I speak some French and get by quite well, but still speak like a "Spanish Cow". We see this as a great opportunity for my wife to live in a climate that will help her condition. Also, the Villa has it's own pool which we can use when the owners are not there. (most of the time) This will be good physio for my wife and hopefully make her feel better too. Time will tell.

The main complication for me is which is the best route to go with regards to an E121 or not? There are other things like which Bank to go with, car insurance, how to leave our UK house and whether we can get Sky TV or not, but these are small fry compared with dealings with health cover.

I don't think we are doing this too naively. With the security of French social security payments being thrown in, I feel we should be covered better than some we have met. If anyone can think of other things to consider, please post a message. All thoughts and ideas entertained as two (maybe more?) heads are better than one.

Thanks again., very much appreciated.

Kind regards.

 

 

[Clair]

I know, I know... more a rhetorical question accompanied by much head-shaking...

At least the OP will have a good starting point.

He should request more details concerning his employment terms from the prospective employer (employment contract specifying the hours worked per day, week or month; days off; Sundays and bank holidays; specific duties and responsibilities; holiday cover; accommodation provided; if so, benefit in lieu of payment?...)

Unless the property is the prospective employer's second/holiday residence, the OP can be paid via CESU, in which case the OP must be paid at least the SMIC (minimum wage) and will have contributions made on his behalf for health, French pension and social cover.

As an employee, the OP would have the same general rights as every French employee.

• See this post about termination of employment via CESU.
• The OP (and dependents) will be covered for healthcare for one year after the termination of employment.
• Unempoyment benefit is paid on the basis of a percentage of previous earnings.

Worth noting: the CESU specifically excludes employing anyone to work in a holiday home or rental property.

Edit: the OP has replied whilst I was having a coffee and composing this post!

Re the "...enough to cover the cost of the social security contributions without any additional payment from myself", as an employee, deductions will be made from your salary for payment of contributions.

[AnOther]

Sounds like you've got it reasonably under control and I hope it works out for you. A opportunity too good to pass on I think [:D]

Maybe somebody could responded to my query about IB post retirement, it would be interesting to know the answer to that as it could be quite significant.

Perhaps a separate thread in the Finance section might elicit a reply.

[Clair]

[quote user="Housesitters"]The main complication for me is which is the best route to go with regards to an E121 or not?[/quote]

Maybe someone with more E121 knowledge can say if you could be added on to your wife's E121 at a later date, should your employment come to an end. This is not something I know enough about.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="ErnieY"] 
Maybe somebody could responded to my query about IB post retirement, it would be interesting to know the answer to that as it could be quite significant.

[/quote]

Can I get Incapacity Benefit?

You may be able to get Incapacity Benefit if you:

• are over 16 and under State Pension age

[Housesitters]

Hi Clair. Some good points there. Hmm..this is where the plot thickens.

The Villa has been inherited by the owners from his deceased father, but there is a clause that the elderly mother can live there as long as she is alive. (now 75?) However, she only uses it as her summer retreat, as they have several other properties in France. I will be employed by her. She is as equally as nice as the rest of the family and she is an ex French accountant, so knows the ropes?

It is also the owners prime residence, but they will be travelling abroad most of the time.

With regards to holidays, etc. They are very flexible and there is no requirement to be there 100% of the time as the Villa is alarmed, etc. However, they prefer for someone to be seen to be there, as you can appreciate in the Cote d'Azur.

I will request the contract ASAP.

Great replies and all good stuff. Thanks to you all....

[AnOther]

Thanks Ron, I thought that was the case.

[Cerise]

I work for someone in their maison secondaire CESU and it is fine - it is only short term holiday lets which are excluded.  This from the CESU site.

Garde d’enfants, d’un malade ou d’une personne dépendante, ménage, petits travaux de jardinage, soutien scolaire… pour la réalisation de ces travaux, toute personne peut embaucher un salarié à son domicile (ou dans sa résidence secondaire), sous réserve de respecter un certain nombre de formalités : se déclarer comme employeur, vérifier la situation du salarié, notamment au regard de la sécurité sociale, de ses autorisations de séjour et de travail s’il est étranger, rédiger un contrat de travail… Les règles applicables figurent dans le code du travail et dans la « convention collective nationale des salariés du particulier employeur 

[Housesitters]

Thanks for that Cerise. For those that aren't too hot on French (moi aussi!), here's an Internet translation.

 

Childcare, a patient or a dependent person, household, gardening odd jobs, tutoring… for carrying out this work, anyone can hire an employee at his home (or in his secondary residence), subject to a number of formalities: to declare themselves as an employer, check the status of the employee, particularly with regard to social security, its residence permits and work if it is a foreigner, write an employment contract… The rules contained in the Labour Code and the "national collective agreement for employees of the particular employer.