Renewing rights to "l'assurance maladie"

[cassis]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

You really need to read the letter...

The application form is a standard form for applying for CMU de base.  It contains all the stuff you mention because first time applicants need to supply the necessary information so that the CPAM can process that application, eg, proof of identity, residence, income, etc. 

It's different in the case of renewals.  Notice how the CPAM have sent you a special letter asking you to send back the 'imprime de declaration de revenus joint a la present lettre' (that's the CMU application form) together with a copy of your tax avis - and (if you are an EU citizen) nothing else. 

If they wanted you to send everything mentioned on the back of the standard application form, they'd have said so. 

Pretty efficient, if you ask me....[Www]

[/quote]

No.  Our letter says nothing of the sort.  Maybe yours does.  Ours doesn't say anything about being an EU citizen.  When I've time I'll scan it if yours is different to the following:   

The letter says that in addition to the declaration form attached, and our avis d'imposition, we should send "les documents attestant de la regularité de votre séjour (carte de séjour, blah, blah ...)".

It make no mention that this applies only to non-EU citizens. 

It also makes no mention that, if we are renewing rather than applying from scratch, we should not comply with the other documentation requested on the application form itself.  Nor does it say anything of the sort on the form. 

Sorry, but the letter and form are not consistent and they are not clear unless you already know what they really want.  You should have consistency between the two, otherwise it leads to uncertainty and errors. 

If one of my staff had come up with a form and accompanying letter like that, they would have been told to revise it - it would not be acceptable to go to test, never mind to issue.  I get the impression that this form and letter combination was never subject to secondary review by anyone, never mind put to test before general issue.

[Sunday Driver]

I feel you are making an issue out of nothing here.

I think you'll find your letter is the same as the one I received and the one that was posted earlier on this thread and the same one that was sent out to every other person in France who is renewing their CMU membership.....

The letter is quite precise in what it asks for and you agree that the point at issue reads as follows:

- les documents attestant de la régularité de votre séjour (carte de séjour, récépisse en cours de validité, rendez-vous en préfecture...),

As an EU citizen, the regularity of your residence is simply evidenced by your tax avis.  You are not required to hold a carte de sejour, nor a receipt showing you've applied for one, or evidence of of a visit to your prefecture, so those examples do not apply to you. If you weren't an EU citizen, then clearly they would apply, you would be aware of this, and as a consequence, you would enclose those items.  If you are an EU citizen and you don't have a CdS, then you know that it is not a requirement.

Other than the CPAM going to the expense of binning a standard letter that everyone else understands and issuing an individual letter to you personally,  I don't know what else you are looking for.......

 

[Sunday Driver]

All of the work you've done this year hasn't yet been declared so it won't be on any tax avis.......

Your current CMU renewal is based on your 2008 tax avis - that's for income received during 2007. Any seasonal work this year is immaterial because it will be included in next year's tax avis.

 

[seb47]

So - armed with our avis des impots on a bright sunny morning and confident with your advice SD, we set off to renew our rights.

However, Mme le CPAM in Fumel had different ideas. She was adamant that we needed all the justificatifs of our revenue for 2007. Fortunately we had brought along our Declaration of Revenue.2007. She mumbled and grumbled, took a copy and said " well you must wait for a response from Agen".

Our problem is that we'll be on holiday on the 15th (due date for return of info for renouvellement), so we are hoping that all will go well ...

[Sunday Driver]

The simplest way to renew your CMU rights is to complete the application form, attach the necessary supporting documentation, then post them off to the main CPAM office in Agen.

The person you met at the local permanence at Fumel will be more accustomed to sorting out people's routine claim forms and the like, so she's possibly unfamiliar with CMU renewals and didn't want to make an error resulting in your dossier being sent back by Agen.

Provided you've followed the instructions in the original letter, then you should have nothing to worry about.

 

[seb47]

Thanks SD - we hope so. As you said earlier somewhere, it will be so much simpler when the tax is automatically linked in to health - hopefully next year.

[cassis]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Other than the CPAM going to the expense of binning a standard letter that everyone else understands and issuing an individual letter to you personally,  I don't know what else you are looking for.......

[/quote]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The person you met at the local

permanence at Fumel will be more accustomed to sorting out people's

routine claim forms and the like, so she's possibly unfamiliar with CMU

renewals and didn't want to make an error resulting in your dossier

being sent back by Agen.

[/quote]

Okay, I get it - Joe Public has no excuse for thinking the letter and form are ambiguous and badly written but it's okay for the people administering the system not to understand what is being asked for.

[:D] [:D] [:D]

How about a letter and form that both say the same thing, along the lines of:

• IF YOU ARE ALREADY COVERED BY CMU

Complete and return the enclosed form and a copy of your "Avis d'Impôts sur les Revenus 2007"

• IF YOU ARE NOT ALREADY COVERED BY CMU

Complete and return the enclosed form and a copy of your "Avis d'Impôts sur les Revenus 2007"

AND

Provide proof of stable and legitimate residence (see list of suitable documents "A" below)

Might make it a wee bit clearer for the poor fonctionnaires who are trying to administer the system.  And Joe Public may not even have to bother them in the first place with questions to which they don't know the correct answer.

[Graham & Brenda]

Cassis, I think you are preaching to the converted!

[Sunday Driver]

Using the situation encountered by seb47 at her local permanence to promote the suggestion that the poor fonctionnaires trying to administer the system do not understand what is being asked for is stretching the argument a bit...

Regarding your suggestions for a letter, you appear to have missed the fact that the letter under discussion on this thread is only applicable to persons renewing their rights under CMU - it does not apply to anyone who is not already covered.

On that basis, it would seem to already meet your suggestion as mentioned in your first bullet point....  [;-)]

 

[cassis]

I think we're going round and around in circles here, SD.  [:D] [:D] [:D]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It's different in the case of renewals. 

Notice how the CPAM have sent you a special letter asking you to send

back the 'imprime de declaration de revenus joint a la present lettre'

(that's the CMU application form) together with a copy of your tax avis

- and (if you are an EU citizen) nothing else.

[/quote]

In fact the letter does not say, as you insist, just send back the CMU application form and "your tax avis" and nothing else if you are an EU citizen"  - as Krusty pointed out, and I think we are agreed on this, it actually says

[quote user="krusty"]

 

Pour assurer la prolongation de vos droits, je vous invite a me retourner avant le 15 septembre 2008

 

• les documents attestant de votre résidence stable et effective en France: photocopie de l'avis d'imposition ou de non imposition ou, à défaut, tout autre document attestant du caractère permanent de la résidence ou d'un séjour d'une durée supérieure à 6 mois. Si vous ne fournissez pas ces pièces, vous courez le risque d'une suspension du remboursement des soins (4)

• les documents attestant de la régularité de votre séjour (carte de séjour, recepissé en cours de validité, convocation, rendez-vous en préfecture...)

• l'imprime de déclaration de revenus joint à la présente lettre

• les documents attestant de vos revenus:
  photocopie de l'avis d'imposition ou, à défaut, de toute autre pièce
  justificative de vos revenus

                                              

Je me permets d'insister sur la nécessité d'une réponse rapide à ce courrier.

 

[/quote]

Notice how it makes no mention of not having to return the items I've highlighted in red if you are already in the system and simply renewing, nor any mention of it not being required if you are an EU citizen.

My point is that it would be simple for both the letter and the form to

be standardised to cover both new applicants and renewals, with no ambiguity and no conflict

between what is requested on the form and what is requested in the letter.  [:)]

[Sunday Driver]

Why don't I (and everyone else in France who has no problems understanding this) just agree to differ and leave it there.

Providing of course you don't disappear again for another week then resurface to use another of my unrelated comments to resurrect this.....[;-)]

 

[cassis]

Sorry you can't understand the actual point I'm making, SD.   It's just that I think the form and letter are badly designed.  Judging from various forums, including this one, I don't think I'm entirely alone in this, as silly a sausage as I may be in some respects.  [:D]

Maybe I'm picky and I can't tolerate sloppy work because (God help me) as part of my former job I used to manage and train people to design forms/questionnaires and write instructions to third parties on how to complete the same.

As you say, let's leave it at that - an amicable difference of opinion on a minor point of French public administration.  [:)] [B]

PS I haven't been getting any email notifications, hence the delay in responding. [;-)]

[krusty]

I took some of the early advice , filled in the form and included my tax avis , nothing else.

Today I have had a letter confirming accepted and advice how much the payments will be .....thanks all

[cheminot]

Regarding sending the tax 'avis'. Is it OK to just send  copy of the front and back pages or do you have to send all of them?

cheminot

[krusty]

I am not sure , to be on the safe side I sent a copy of all four side.

[Quillan]

Just the front and back will do, don't forget to sign and date it on the back page you copied.

[Jazzer]

To date I have only received my Avis d'impot and not the Avis d'imposition. Is it worth sending this or perhaps with a copy of the return I submitted?

[Sunday Driver]

Your avis d'impot, ie avis d'imposition (it's the famous green form) is your tax demand and that's what your CPAM wants.

 

 

[Jazzer]

My thanks for that. I am confused because last year I had a brown form Avis d'imposition Contributions Sociales and also a green form Avis d'impot sur les Revenus

[seb47]

Thankyou to all especially SD for advice on renouvellement of CMU de Base.

However, we are now sure that this year is a new process for local CPAM offices. They will do their best to make us (ex E 106s) jump through all the hoops!!

We sent a photocopy of our revenue fiscal for 2007 to Agen CPAM (despite grumblings from the local CPAM lady that we would need justificatifs of income - we argued not).

Went on holiday and sure enough on return yesterday, had a letter waiting from CPAM Agen asking urgently for :

proof of identity (3rd time so far);  proof of residence such as EDF bill; proof of 'capitaux meme etranger'. Not a relaxing end to the holiday.

We took all requested evidence to Agen and appear to have appeased them. Are they looking for stress candidates in the health system? 

Not so easy to renew as it seems in our case. Awaiting confirmation that we are still in the (paying!!) system as of 15 September!