Diabetic intending to move to France in the next year HELP!!!

[Star trecker]

I am an insulin dependent diabetic [had it since I was 13 months old and am now 55] and intend to move to France by the end of the year when we have sold our UK house to live in the house we already own in the Midi Pyrenee.

The problem I have is that because of the changes to the health rules which have thrown up all sorts of problems for people already living in France and have as far as I can tell been more or less resolved to the benefit of those already living there, the problems associated to people intending to move here with pre existing medical conditions have as yet not been clarified.

I have spent months and months reading and researching and am still totally confused and need to know from those that have recent and relevant experience exactly what my position will be.

At present I receive all of my health related costs including my insulin, test strips and any other drugs I may need [for example antibiotics] all for free.

Before the changes I was under the impression that I would have got all costs associated with my diabetes in France refunded but would have had to have a top insurance to get the costs of anything else [I know it was more complicated than that but in its simplest form that was it]

I now understand that I will get virtually nothing covered at all in France untill I am resident there for a full 5 years - other than the 2 year E106 entitlement.

With that information I then went to seek comprehensive health insurance and after many in depth discussions with brokers and insurers have discovered that no health insurers will cover my diabetes related costs including checck ups, medication or diabetic costs associated with hospitalisation [even if the hospitalisation was not because of  my diabetes] They will however cover all other health related costs.

I am not currently in receipt of DLA in the UK but am in the process of applying, I am employed and work full time and of course pay my full NI contributions. We intend to spend at least 6 months restoring and improving our property and may then become artisans however this is not a certainty I know that if we were to become self employed my problems wiould in effect not exist however I am currently working on the premise we will be inactif.

I have tried to establish if I would still be covered in France as sopmeone with a long term heath condition but have been told this is no longer the case. Is this so?

If it is so, then I believe that as someone with a long standing disability I and all the others like me are being discriminated against by the French [an indeed many other european ]government as tthe fact is that in following the European directive wwhich says that all europeans should have the right to live anywhere in Eurpope, I have had that right removed as without healthcare insurance I cannot afford to live in France as the amount I may have to pay is not something that can be calculated with any certainty. To my mind the french government is saying yes come and live here, pay for all your health costs and by the way if you can't get the full insurance we do not want you to live here and that is direct discrimination against people with long term health conditions.

If this is the case I want to do something about it.

The UK government will when we leave the UK save all the money they currently pay out for my healthcare and as far as I can tell other than the 2 years E106 are not prepared to pay for anything else. That will leave me three years in no man's land, hoping I stay well and do not create bills which we cannot cover.

Help and advice desperately needed

 

[Bluebell]

Replied to your email.

regards, Tina

[AnOther]

In essence your take is correct although I would argue your point about discrimination. You do have the right to live and work anywhere you choose within the EU as per the directive however what you do not have is the right to be a burden on the social system and in this regard each state is entitled to establish it's own rules in this regard. If you consider it this has to be so as no country can afford an open door to every chronically sick EU citizen who decides to take up residence in another state and leech from it's health system into which they have paid not a cent. That is not aimed at you personally BTW, just a general comment.

Would you support an NHS model whereby every EU citizen could just walk into a UK hospital and be treated for whatever ailment, or ailments, they are suffering from on demand ?

The NHS is already one of the most lax systems in terms of qualification, and abused because of it, but that would be completely ruinous so will remain a Utopian concept for the foreseeable future.

Also it is patently illogical and unrealistic to expect any insurer to cover

you for chronic existing conditions, that is not the purpose of

insurance.

Your do have options, one of which would be to establish a business by means of which you could pay French social charges and consequently be covered for your health needs as a result. The new 'auto-entrepreneur' scheme offers possibilities.

Alternatively you may be able to do as I am which is move to France but continue working in UK for around 3 years. That way we are covered by E106 for that period then for a further 2 years after I stop work which takes us to the magic 5 years for automatic cover.

I understand your frustration and I'm sure it is shared by many others in similar circumstances however the system as was in France, which was almost an open door, was unsustainable and as it now stands I think is about as equitable as could be hoped for.

If you wish to try and do something about it I wish you the very best of luck.

[cooperlola]

You are not far off the mark, Star Trecker.  A look at our website (see my link below) will show you that we were involved in some of the negotiations which resulted after the French government changed the rules in 2007/8.  It will help clarify your position too - but you've pretty much got it right. As you say, we did get justice for those already living here, but not for those who had yet to move. 

We made the point that some may have been in the process of moving, and therefore commited to it; and also that the disabled and sick were being discriminated against, as you say.  Sadly, as the majority of people here had got what they wanted, it has been virtually impossible to drum up any support for this cause, for those who may or may not want to move in the future.  FHI is now down to just four active members.  I'm in hospital, one is not 100% fit at any time, another has family problems which take him back to the UK on a regular basis, and the other is thinking of moving back to the UK.  Paysans G is, I believe, heavily involved in trying to get the new European ruling on DLA properly enforced for British citizens in Europe.  I'd love to get my teeth into this one, but frankly have not the resources at the moment as I don't know how long I'm going to be stuck here and it's nearly six months already and my colleagues don't either.  It's also much harder when so few people seem to want to help(mostly because they're OK now.) And, personally at least, I just cannot do this at the moment.[:(]

[Star trecker]

In response to ErnieY: I do think I am being discriminated against because if we do live permanently in france and I cannot prove to the Mairie that I have insurance that covers all possible health problems he can decide that I cannot live there full stop. That would then force either me or my husband to be self employed and would cause problems as he is a local government officer specialising in community safety and I am a business management consutant and could not do our work in the UK based in the South of France. I agree we could become artisans but that is simply an idea at present w2ith no foundation whatsoever.

The point I am making - and of course I understand your point about anyone in the EU being able to walk in with any long term and costly condition etc - is that I am fully prepared to pay the comprehensive insurance costs that everyone else will have to pay for all other emdical eventualities- no argument whatsoever- just do not think I can put our family in the position that because of my health [which by the way I am as strong as a horse at present and very fit and never been in hospital except to deliver the children and have a hysterectomy]which may become a cause for concern as I get older.

The insurers have said they consider all diabetics to be 'ticking time bombs' and that because of that they will not cover me, even though they tell me they will cover hypertension after 2 years  and also will cover people with cancer. The costs of cancer treatment are huge and although these days the person is likely to make a full recovery they will have to take ongoing medication and check ups for the rest of their life [a bit like my needs really] so you can imagine how that made me feel. Yet I can get holiday insurance very easily when given the opportunity to explain my condition and my control etc to the insurers, so what is the difference and why wont they cover me as I am?

I go back to my point re discrimination and wanting to do something about it - if I were to not have diabetes now, but then after coming to live tin France were to develop it,  I would be covered by the ALD system due to a change in circumstances but not aparently if we just decide to come to live there.

I am being discriminated agaist by the French Government in that they will not cover my condition for 5 years however say I can come and live there in the knowledge I would not be accepted as I could not provide the proof of adequate insurance because the insurers refuse to cover me for my diabetes and the certificates/letters would say so.

I am being discriminateda gainst by the UK government who will not pay for costs associated with maintainingmy condition if I choose to live anywhere other than the UK - even though they are saving money on the rest of my healthcare costs. The UK Government to which I have contributed all of my life are frankly getting away scott free. Why can't the Fench Government claim back the costs from the UK as if we remained in the UK they would pick up far more costs than simply for the element regarding the ALD

I am also being discriminated against by the insurance companies who refuse to cover my condition if I choose to live in france but will cover me for holiday insurance anywhere in the world for up to 3 months.

Something like this forces us to consider actually moving to france and keeping up our UK doctor and diabetic specialist from our daughters address - a very dishonest move I think but one I may be forced to do as we do intend to travel back to the Uk on a fairly regular basis [probably twice a year] to see family and friends etc.

I am making enquiries re taking this to the European parliament as to be honest I am slipping between every crevice that exists at present and without being able to calculate the costs of keeping healthy in France feel our long standing dream [15 years in the making] has a big chance of being scuppered entirely through no fault of our own.

Anyone in a similar position to me please let me know and strengthen my arguments as at present I feel as though I am the oply person in the world with this problem and know for certain I can't be as nearly 12% of the population has diabetes and to carry that through at least 12% of people intending to live in France will as well [and that does not of course include all other ALD people intending to move to France

 

Alspo anyone with a long term health condition under state retirement age that has just moved to france - what has happened for you? Could I go to the CM and ask them to cover me because I cannot get insurance to cover the ALD? If so end of problem!

Comments welcome

[Star trecker]

Hi Cooperola- already been in touch with one of your team and had everything clarified form their perspective and understand the depleting numbers etc.

 

Perhaps there will always be issues that require an organisations uch as yours tobe active and delivering? I was referred to your website by my European MP

[AnOther]

[quote user="Star trecker"]if we do live permanently in france and I cannot prove to the Mairie that I have insurance that covers all possible health problems he can decide that I cannot live there full stop. That would then force either me or my husband to be self employed and would cause problems as he is a local government officer specialising in community safety and I am a business management consutant and could not do our work in the UK based in the South of France[/quote]Sorry but you've really confused me now. What has health insurance in France got to do with your current jobs and why would not fulfilling the criteria to legally reside in France force you to become self employed [8-)]

My understanding was that you wished to retire from work early and move to France, is that not the case ?

 

[Ron Avery]

I have a comment.  Your post are long, confusing and contradictory.  

You say you are as fit as a fiddle apart from diabetes so how are you entitled to DLA?  You talk about retiring to France and then still working and then as artisans but have no skills with which to be artisans.  As opposed to the UK you cannot just call yourself a builder etc here you have to prove it!!.  You then talk about continung to work in your old jobs in France.......... 

Sorry but I'll tell you what many are thinking.  if you choose to move to France you do things the French way, like it or not, its their country not ours.  It matters not what you paid into  or are entitled to in the UK, its your choice to move out of the UK, nobody is forcing you.  There is no discrimination against you whatsoever, your situation is no different to any other non working immigrant who wants to live in France, so either accept it or rethink your move.

[Antonia]

Star trecker.

I have sent you a pm

[AnOther]

I was tip toeoing whilst Ron has come straight in with both barrels right between the eyes, I can't really say that I disagree with him though [blink]

 

[Star trecker]

soprry to confuse.

 

It was your suggestion that I work innthe UK but live in france I think? If not please ignore that thread as I am so fed up with this I am really feeling upset by the lack of understanding people have for my problem and am sure you would not like to be in my position.

 

We may decide to be self employed but at present cannot be sure of that and cannot therefore rely on that benefit.

[Star trecker]

Dear Ron

 

your email as was said blew both barrels between my eyes.

I am trying to consider every possible option that may be open tome and to correct you yes we actuelly do have craft skills as many years ago I ran a small home business making children's clothes and myhusband is a skilled carpenter and is considering making childrens toys but that frankly is our business.

 

I must have confused everyone with the answer re working - point is we cannot carry on our current employment in the UK as would be inpossible.

Re DLA - you clearly do not understand the crtiteria forclaiming that. let me explain - I am fit as a fiddle however I have night time hypos and have had them all of my life which meas I have to ahve someone every night within earshot as I go int fits and do not wake up and need medication which without it I would likely go into a coma and die so therefore have needs for a carer at night. Durin the day i am fine and no problems at all - but night tiome can be a very bad time - sometimes repeatedly, sometimes nothing for months on end.

We have chosen france many years ago for our retirement because we love the way of life and the attitude of the pople including the climate and the general attitude. However I do not think the Government is being fair. That is all. Our dreams cannot happen if this is not sorted. That is also unfair.

[makfai]

 

I would warn Ron this may be MUCH too long for him to read J.

 

Let me say at the start that I am not challenging Ron’s and other’s views that economics has its place in this argument.  I would also say that I am not sure I can offer viable alternatives. The problem is that the EU has got itself in a mess over its principles particularly that of movement. Franco Frattini, Vice President of the European Commission, in his written guide (entitled ‘Civis europaeus sum’) to EU Directive 2004/38/EC, described the EU as a ‘special area of human hope’

 

‘Community law, in the form of Directive 2004/38/EC, fulfils one of humanity’s most long-standing aspirations: the possibility of moving without restrictions or hindrances and settling down in the country of one’s choice together with one’s family.’

 

However, this legislation effectively discriminates against certain people by setting a benchmark which is unattainable.  This is wrong in principle and is a hindrance to, and flies in the face of, the EU’s statement that: [my highlights]

 

‘Citizenship of the Union confers on every citizen of the Union a primary and individual right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaty and to the measures adopted to give it effect.’

 

It would appear that both the EU Directive and the French legislation are requiring a category of people – i.e. those with certain pre-existing conditions – to achieve the impossible.  Legislation which does that is clearly wrong.

 

The Directive states that  [my highlights]

 

‘This Directive respects the fundamental rights and freedoms and observes the principles recognised in particular by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. In accordance with the prohibition of discrimination contained in the Charter, Member States should implement this Directive without discrimination between the beneficiaries of this Directive on grounds such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic characteristics, language, religion or beliefs, political or other opinion, membership of an ethnic minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation,’

 

Those people who are ‘disabled’ through pre-existing conditions will not be able to meet the criterion of ‘comprehensive sickness insurance’ contained in both Article 7 and the French legislation (unless it is through an approved ‘E’ Form [e.g. E106]) as they would have to seek such insurance from a commercial source.  In some cases no commercial source exists.

 

The effect of this is to discriminate against these people as a direct result of their disability.  Those persons suffering from a disability and not already resident in France will be prohibited from obtaining residence in France beyond three months directly as a result of their illness.

 

This discriminatory act contravenes the Directive’s own guidelines and the ‘Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union’ and is, therefore, not only discriminatory but unreasonable and unlawful.

 

It is fully appreciated that there is a balance to be struck between free movement and the burden new residents may place on Member States.  However, the way in which the Directive is being applied in France does not allow for the case of each EU Citizen who wishes to be considered a potential resident to be judged on its merits in regard to the ‘burden on the state’ issue. 

 

The approach to application of the Directive in France creates a blanket affect based on a financial criterion which the commercial insurance industry and not the state will set. This financial criterion will have an in built profit margin for the commercial provider.

 

For an EU Citizen’s right of residence to be subjected to a criterion which contains an element of profit for a private commercial enterprise, rather than being an assessment of whether the potential resident would be a burden on the state, is fundamentally flawed. 

 

Such a policy also conflicts with the Article 31 of the Directive which prohibits discrimination on the basis of ‘property’ (in this case money and the ability to pay).

 

The introduction of this legislation by the French Government means that ongoing residence in France for an existing resident from another EU Member State is also balanced on the knife edge of that resident being able to contribute, on an ongoing basis, to the profits of a commercial insurance company - a company whose primary responsibility is to its shareholders NOT its customers.

 

The risk to existing and future residents of France from other EU Member States is such that it means that their future ‘right of residence’ depends on them being able to qualify for, and maintain, a commercial contract with a private enterprise. I cannot agree with the principle which underpins this situation and I cannot agree with the humanity of such an arrangement.

 

 

 

 

Sorry about the formatting of this I have 'pasted' it in and it seems to have a mind of its own!

[Quillan]

Firstly I am one of the 'lucky ones' having been here for nearly 8 years now and also run a B&B so I pay in to the French system.

As far as I am aware, I am sure somebody will correct me if not correct, the law change in France is only activating or accepting an EU directive which is (loosely) about you not being a drain on the health resources (or any other resources) of another EU state that you move to. By that I understood it to mean that you can get an E106 of up to 2 years depending how long you have worked contiguously withing the UK prior to moving to another EU country. During that time you are expected to find work and join the system. The fact that the UK has not implemented this directive is down to the UK. I mention this only because you might find that trying to get the directive changed may mean your on a hiding to nothing.

I understand how the OP feels but the truth is if you pay nothing in (to the French system) why should you get something out.

The French system covers you 100% for long term illness like Diabetes and heart disease, I don't know about the other illness the OP has. I have heart problems and my mutual cost actually went down a bit because they don't have to cover me.

The only other thing I can think of is if the OP is currently 55 and female then will she get an E121 at 60? If that is the case then with 2 years knocked off for the E106 plus a year before they move she will only have to pay for about 2 years. Her husband I believe will be able to join the French system on the back of her E121 unless that has also changed.

[Star trecker]

Makfai

Thank you so very much for explaining clearly and concisely the position that I and others are in. Now what do we do to challenge/correct this?[:)]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Star trecker"]

sorry to confuse.

It was your suggestion that I work innthe UK but live in france I think? If not please ignore that thread as I am so fed up with this I am really feeling upset by the lack of understanding people have for my problem and am sure you would not like to be in my position.

We may decide to be self employed but at present cannot be sure of that and cannot therefore rely on that benefit.

[/quote]

Startreker that is the point I was trying to make,   The choices as they stand are you get health cover insurance after your E106 runs out or work, but it cannot be a token employment and setting up a small business is nothing at all like in the UK and it can be very expensive.

I am sure that we all feel some sympathy for your situation my post was not at all intended to be brusque or both barrels, just telling you the way things are.

You must face up to the fact things are not going to change in the short term or at all on healthcare in France despite what the "lawyer" might like to think.  France has far bigger fish to fry than worry about a handful of people who cannot move to France because they cannot get healthcare insurance.  What you need to do is face up to the "now" and see if there is any way you can spend time in France whilst retaining your residence in the UK up to a time when a combination of E106s and E121s gets you out of the health care trap.

[baypond]

[quote user="Star trecker"]

 - I am fit as a fiddle however I have night time hypos and have had them all of my life which meas I have to ahve someone every night within earshot as I go int fits and do not wake up and need medication which without it I would likely go into a coma and die so therefore have needs for a carer at night. Durin the day i am fine and no problems at all - but night tiome can be a very bad time - sometimes repeatedly, sometimes nothing for months on end.

[/quote]

I think Ron was a bit OTT there in his response. But... re the above, I am type 2, but insulin maintained. I am lucky that with type 2 I am less likely to fall in to a coma, even with fairly frequent night time hypos. Have you thought of using an insulin pump? or at the very least a continuous glucose monitoring system. The fact that you are having night time care makes me think you are not getting access to the best diabetic management. I am sure they are still very expensive, but have a look at medtronic http://www.medtronic-diabetes.co.uk/ because it might give you an option if you havn't already looked at it, regarding the constant glucose monitoring system.

Best of luck with Diabetes and your French dreams

Giles

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Star trecker"]

Now what do we do to challenge/correct this?[:)]

[/quote]

I think the reality will be that you can do nothing to challenge/correct this.

Don't confuse the rapid success of FrenchHealthIsssues lobbying efforts in overturning the French government's decision to exclude existing expat residents from CMU benefits.  That was a clearly case of an unwarranted exclusion from an existing lawful benefit combined with critical timescales.

 

 

 

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="makfai"]Member States should implement this Directive without discrimination between the beneficiaries of this Directive on grounds such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic characteristics, language, religion or beliefs, political or other opinion, membership of an ethnic minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation[/quote]Whilst I agree with the substance of your post I would however question your interpretation of the term disability to include the chronically ill. I do not think this could be the intent.

There is no doubt that a great many congenitally or accidentally disabled people have either minimal or no particular health needs at all over and above those required by the fully ablebodied.

 

[Star trecker]

The Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) defines a disabled person as someone who has a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.

A diabetic on insulin fits the definition - I agree other people with long term medical conditions may or may not fit the definition as it is personal interpretation and not one laid down by anyone to say who is and who is not, not which conditions are and which are not.

 

[makfai]

I agree that the matters we are discussing all involve 'interpretation' and that really answers the question of 'what do we do?'  The practical answer is 'nothing' because the only way to get a ruling would be through the judicial system...time and money consuming!

However if anyone is interested in the broader subject there are some discussions here and here relevant to disability.

As I said earlier, however, it is not only those wishing to take up residence who face problems the same applies to those who are already resident (under 5 years) and who develop a health problem which then makes them unable to find commercial insurance.  Failure of commercial insurers to take you on places your 'right of continued residence' in jeopardy...this is clearly no more correct than was the original plan to extend the law retrospectively. 

I don't think anyone believes that this issue is black and white  and I am not sure that I follow Ron's comments on setting up 'token employment' . You pay contributions whether your business is performing well or not and who could identify in the current world financial situation that your business as a 'website designer' or 'pool cleaner' etc was a spurious one or not.   By the way...I am no "lawyer".

Health provision is a tricky subject and especially so across national boundaries.  The EU identifies free movement as a primary right but it somehow has to square the circle of economic impact versus ideals it espouses.  Unfortunately for us we are at the historical beginning of this journey and some of us are going to lose out.

[AnOther]

I think Rons comment was perhaps aimed at the auto-entrepreneur scheme which, in all honesty in terms of qualifying for health cover, is too good to be true and will surely be abused and consequently tightened up.

[quote user="makfai"]Unfortunately for us we are at the historical beginning of this journey and some of us are going to lose out.[/quote]I think you have it in a nutshell and we are quite likely talking a generation before true and complete harmonisation becomes a reality.

 

[Ron Avery]

Yes it was Ernie.  I sensed that the OP was thinking that there was perhaps an easy option of just "working" in a small craft type business without knowing that it is just not that easy or cheap. 

Also its no good quoting the definitions of the DDA at the French, that is UK legislation based on an EU Directive which member states apply in the manner that they choose.

[Âme]

Star Trecker -

In the past I've had great difficulty finding insurance for my disabled partner... but succeeded in the end. Tout est possible, for a price.  Maybe a specialist like Handi-assur can help.

There exists French legislation based on the same EU directive as the DDA:

Loi pour l’égalité des droits et des chances, la participation et la citoyenneté des personnes handicapées du 11 février 2005

« Constitue un handicap, au sens de la présente loi, toute limitation d’activité ou restriction de participation à la vie en société subie dans son environnement par une personne en raison d’une altération substantielle, durable ou définitive d’une ou plusieurs fonctions physiques, sensorielles, mentales, cognitives ou psychiques, d’un polyhandicap ou d’un trouble de santé invalidant. »

Further information HERE

Best of luck.

[shablwe]

as a newbie please explain how this is "too good to be true" - you may prefer to email me privately with your answer or perhaps share it with everyone in 'The Connexion' - I am sure that many people would be interested!