Bullying/aggression in school

[SaligoBay]

Here's a magazine article about it, including the SOS-Violence number :

http://www.apel.asso.fr/unapel/bases/statique.nsf/0/e055ccb82697a0b4c125677100563d16?OpenDocument

And here's some official education stuff on the problem:

http://www.education.gouv.fr/prevention/violence/mesures.

http://www.education.gouv.fr/prevention/violence/chiffres.htm

And from a European Conference about school bullying:

http://www.gold.ac.uk/euconf/posters/france.html

There's a lot more than this, of course!  It sounds like collège is the worst affected.   Many French people I know just shrug and say "well, that's how collège-age kids express themselves, by violence, it's normal". 

[grahamh]

I suspect I lack the qualifications to question the motives of any of the 'well-seasoned' posters on this or any other such board, but I'll do it anyway.

I do wonder as to the purpose of the constant scaremongering, tales of woe and doom-laden warnings that abound.  Particularly in respect of the French education system.  A dose of realism never did anyone any harm, particularly those sporting rose-tinted spectacles, but there are readers on this site who, it appears to me, are prone to worry about these things.  To re-inforce their worries seems a little cruel to me.  But then, I guess I'm a bit soft.

Cue a few dozen tales of hideous bullying....

[Miki]

..............I do wonder as to the purpose of the constant scaremongering, tales of woe and doom-laden warnings that abound. 

Oh I totally agree, it is rather silly to answer any queries with honest experienced answers. Far better to arrive in ignorance, that all is wonderful and lovely in the schools and indeed in the country as a whole.

They are only someone's little darlings, so let them find out the hard way, damn good for the soul and who cares that their lives may well be blighted forever. Of course that never happens, I said that for effect only.

Let everyone bring their kids, especially the teenagers who will find it a breeze..........

What purpose does anyone have of telling it as they have found it ? well if yours is a typical thought, then I guess some of us have been p*****g in the wind for too long and perhaps it is time to let the new wave of folk simply watch the TV programmes on "French for the masses" and let some of the members take a well earned breather.

To dash with your hopes, I offer no bullying stories but can offer you some psychological stories at school if you like, no best not........................

 

 

 

 

[SaligoBay]

Grahamh,

Pace, but the title was quite clear. 

There but for the grace of whatever.   If even one person benefits from it, it was worth doing, non? 

 

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

Here are links to some uk-based information.
http://www.bullying.co.uk/the_site/statistics.htm
http://www.direct.gov.uk/AdvancedSearch/SearchResults/fs/en?NP=1&PO1=C&PI1=W&PF1=A&PG=1&RP=20&PT1=bullying+statistics&SC=__dgov_site&Z=1
In my experience attitudes are different (both on the part of parents and of teachers) but I haven't seen anything to suggest that there is more of a problem in the UK or in France.
Has anyone come across anything comparing the problem both sides of the channel? Is there any reason to think that bullying is more prevalent or better dealt with on one side than the other?

[Patf]

As you say, Pucette, where is the evidence to show that any one european country has more violence in its schools than another? During my working life I certainly came across more than enough, especially in inner city comprehensive non-religious schools. Catholic schools seemed to have a less violent ethos. Our oldest son was the victim of bullying at age 15 by the "c**k of the school" and his gang.Of course he never mentioned it to us, but just started leaving earlier for school each day. Eventually school staff intervened and one teacher threatened the bully with physical reprisal if he didn't stop. The teacher was a rugby player. Things were ok after that. Not that I'm advocating physical violence as a solution but the threat of it seemed to work in this case. Pat.

[SaligoBay]

No idea about comparison between UK and France, because I haven't tried to put children through UK education.    I wasn't trying to score points, honestly! 

BUT interestingly enough, as I stood in the long queue at the Trésor Public today to query my 986-euro taxe d'hab bill (sadly it's right   ), I noticed a poster for another of those Indigo/Vert numbers, for victims of aggression, cambriolage, and other nasties.  So you see, I don't imagine these things! 

AND I've come across information about how to deal with harcèlement morale in the workplace (that's what they do when they want rid of you but haven't got grounds to sack you). 

I'm sorry if this upsets anyone, but I'm assuming I'm not the only one to have met Real Life in the midst of the French dream.

If you haven't met Real Life in France, just smile smugly at these silly scaremongering posts! 

[Miki]

If you haven't met Real Life in France, just smile smugly at these silly scaremongering posts!

No I can't say I have any certain facts about which is worse in either the UK or France. Our youngest son was bullied at primary school by an elder boy. This was stopped, not by the school but by one of his "big" brothers finding out.

Here in France, he was verbally bullied by one of the idiot serveillants (sp) a young woman who told him at every opportunity, that the Brits were stupid and dirty. We informed the directrice (gold teeth, diamond in the front tooth, nails done in individual colour with glitter on the nails and her eye brows, poodle always on her lap being constantly kissed. She was fresh out of the Army, are you getting the picture?) A very horrible lady who said it was not so and he was making it all up.

This went on a while until one day in a local resto, Tina and I were eating with a couple of French people, when in walked the said serveillant and her partner. We told our friends about her and our son and the man simply nodded. During the meal and just after one of the courses our friend (the male) walked over to the toilet by way of the table where she sat had a few words and then carried on to the toilet. He told us that night that he had simply said bullying of any kind would not be tolerated and she agreed, then he told her that M et Mme sitting over there were not happy with her and her racist taunts to their son, he said she went red and tried to reply, to which he said "please say nothing and in a few weeks I shall ask their son if all is now OK"

From that day she said no more to our son, even ignoring his very existence ! (the directrice still carried on immitating a dragon though !).

The man, well he was the ex Mayor and very much respected by the townfolk and known by all, he was also the retired owner of the large builders yard in town.  He gave us more help than we could have imagined during our first few months in our new area and continued from then until we left. Yes, we know we were lucky that day, without him being with us, I guess we could have had ended up with a pretty nasty situation developing at school but....................

Oh yes, in answer to the above   is that a non smug smile ??)

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

Whether bullying in France or the UK is worse really isn't the point. The post is useful because bullying is always odious and difficult to deal with, all the more so if you are in a foreign country with an unhappy child.

At least anyone doing a search here will be able to access some help and support.

[Brumble]

Do you not think bullying in the UK is just less publicised?? You don't read articles on bullying in the UK like you do in France.  I can name but 9 or 10 bullies just in my 10 year olds class here in the UK and probably just as many in my 7 year olds class.  Suppose i am lucky in the sense that they both take no notice of the bullies and hopefully will carry on with that motive in France.  When we move from the UK alot of us do actually do as much research as possible especially where our children are concerned but these problems do occur here and i am quite horrified at the young age it actually starts!!  Anyway we plod on with all your negative thoughts and hope we aren't all as unhappy as most of you seem to be,  with our eyes wide open.  I'll let you all know soon how we find the french education system.

[Russethouse]

In my experience bullying is very much publicised in the UK, both my children's schools had a zero tolerance policy but when my son was bullied it was out of school and a matter for the police.

After a word with the offender from the community policeman the bullying stopped. We also took our son to self defence classes, to increase his confidence.

I don't think people who post negative things are unhappy, they are just 'aware'

BTW there have been several posts from parents who have moved to France to do their best for their kids but who have ended up in tears with their children when things either go wrong, or do not go as they expect regarding education.

[SaligoBay]

LOL Baxter, who's unhappy?!

Blips happen in life, often where you least expect them.  Dripping taps, barking dogs, people stealing carp...... forums like this one offer solutions.

So I offered a solution before anyone on here admitted having this particular problem.  Sorry!

[Miki]

 Anyway we plod on with all your negative thoughts and hope we aren't all as unhappy as most of you seem to be,  with our eyes wide open.  I'll let you all know soon how we find the french education system.

Baxter,

Apart from agreeing with Gay & SB, none of what we say is to put anyone off, nor does it in anyway mean we are unhappy. I can go around with a permanent grin as good as anyone on the planet, in fact in our line of work, it is a much required element

I will offer a guess on what you will post in the early years of your children at school.

You will so pleased, you will find out just how quickly they pick up the language, even telling us that they are fluent after just a short time,  be quite excited BUT unless you personally are pretty fluent, you really will not have a clue about what is going on and what is expected of them in the years ahead and that, please believe me, is where all the confusion lies and I would like a euro for everytime I am told how a Brit kid is top in English already (right !) and that statement seems to be the be all and end all of how well little Johnny is doing !!

Your first outing unaided at the grand surface for La Rentrée will be a joy to behold, not terribly difficult but, boy oh boy all those things required, ticked off the list and some things never to be used and things not on the list, "Madame why haven't you bought such and such" ? 

Good luck but don't knock free info, especially accurate advice, plenty of places to get codswallop (what a lovely word, just rediscovered it !) if that's what you prefer?

 

 

 

 

 

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

In my experience bullying is much publicised in the uk and socially unacceptable.

If I had a child in the uk who was being bullied I would have no hesitation in reporting it to the school, and as Russethouse did, the police if necessary. If I had a child in France I would be looking at the sites SB mentions because reporting it to the school could be counterproductive, and to the police - well, the idea wouldn't have crossed my mind if I hadn't just written the above! Looking for a man of power and influence, Miki's unwitting solution, is ideal if you have them on your side but not everyone can do that and I have not come across any other way of stopping bullying in France.

I think the issues are worthy of discussion because the different attitudes in themselves came as a shock to me without children; those contemplating a move to France with children can only benefit from a better understanding of the very different society they are joining.

I've got used to the different attitude and am not sure it's a bad thing but I wouldn't feel able to protect children here myself.

[Teamedup]

 I don't really care whether anyone thinks I'm negative. Not my problem, I'm actually rather lucky, I'm in a long and happy marriage and have a good life. I know an awful lot about living here. As miki said, we too had lots of trial and error, and it was to the n'th degree in our case, what a challenge, what an experience. And I'm still learning.

Also, I'm not a fugeuse. We had a perfectly good happy life before we came here, just something came up and we were ready for an adventure and a challenge. We certainly didn't move to a 'better place', just somewhere different.

re the post, my eldest son was bullied for around 6 six years, not in the stats ofcourse. Teachers uninterested, parents uninterested. Culprit, current maire's son. Stopped when my son hit back.

 

 

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

Thank you; what would concern me is not "just" the possibility of children having to learn to defend themselves the way your son did, but whether they are bullied or not this is the attitude they will be brought up with - disinterest in the weak - that bullying is part of life along with death and taxes. 

I was brought up to see bullying as wrong, like stealing and lying - there may be mitigating circumstances but the acts themselves are wrong.

[Mistral]

If I had a child in France I would be looking at the sites SB mentions because reporting it to the school could be counterproductive

I'm so sad whan I read this. Not because it's wrong but because it is so often true. About 10 years ago, there was a big push to try to sort out the bullying problems there are in a lot of schools. Everybody said it was so important, every school put it in the projet d'etablissement. But somehow, you got the feeling that they were looking for the classic case of "big boy hits small boy and steals his dinner money" and everything that didn't enter into this wasn't seen a really bullying.

Some schools are great on this. I'm lucky that mine takes both parents and pupils seriously and deals with it very fast. We have special training for the pupil delegués as well. (this is mainly because until 5 years ago we had a terrible record- then we changed principals)

Our son was bullied in primary school, all we got was that he should stay away from the bully in question. We tried to get the school to sort it out with the parents but they just said that nothing worked with those parents, so there was no point. When he was kicked in the head by the bully, we got a medical report and forced the school to hold a meeting with the teacher, head and parents (they didn't come) he was never bullied again.

A friend's 4 year old daughter was bullied in maternelle (by a 5 year old who was threatening to stick pens in any avilable orifice) She got the same reply from the school as we had had; these parents don't listen to us, we'll keep your daughter away from X and inside at recré. She decided that wasn't enough, contacted the IA, the rectorat, the school doctor and the police. Now, they keep an eye on X and he has to stay inside at recré. (and the parents won't talk to her, but she's not too bothered about that)

Both these examples are people knowing how to work the system. I wouldn't have known where to start. That's why you need those addresses