To those worried about education...

[SaligoBay]

Don't be.  Your bright children (and aren't they all?!) will be fine.  Most settle in just dandy.  It's YOU who will worry about their future, not them, because they won't know any better!!

BUT do your own research for the longer term, which is after all what we're all talking about just now. 

The problem isn't the day-to-day getting on the school bus and learning French verbs.  Ask around in the UK and in your area of France, see what youngsters are actually doing.  Not just one in each country, because there are always exceptions, but as many as you can find.

Think about what you imagine your child's future to be - based on your experience of Britain, you might see your super-bright loin-fruit as having a dazzling career in medicine or the City or whatever, earning mega-bucks.  But what do super-bright French people do?   Do they dazzle, or do they become dull fonctionnaires?  Where would a newly-graduated French medic get the money to open his own cabinet, do you have to have money already?   Damned if I know!       

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

I believe that the 'not knowing any better' thing is only valid until a certain age.

[Brumble]

Saligobay

thanks for a bit of positive advice.  I'm sure they will be ok but having read the posts about how AWFUL the french system is it does put doubts in your mind, after all we all want the best for our children, don't we?

I'm going to keep my fingers, toes, and everything else crossed from now on.

[Mistral]

It's not AWFUL, it's just not as good as it could be (like the educational system in most countries I imagine) The whole mentality is very different from the British one. Even after all these years I realise that I am looking at things through "British eyes" and trying to relate my own experience of school (which is out of date anyway) to the way things are done in another country and a couple of decades later.

 

[Annhopkins]

As I stated in my post yesterday in a cautionary tale, our education system is about to change (watch the news).  Having received some positive feedback from friends in France whose children are in university we are once again ready to make the move.  As for the future, we are looking only as far as the Bac for our children, after that they will be old enough (and hopefully wise enough) to make their own decisions on where to go from there.  This is a whole family move and is meant to be for the benefit of us all, however once we feel everything is right now to make the move, the future is up to all of us to make happen.

 

[Val50]

[quote]It's not AWFUL, it's just not as good as it could be (like the educational system in most countries I imagine) The whole mentality is very different from the British one. Even after all these years I ...[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more Mistral - it's not awful. I think it's more about attitudes than anything else. Our eldest (who entered the french education system at 16) is loving her first term at university in Caen, even though it's hard work, and doesn't regret for a minute turning down the offers she had at UK universities. Our 16 year old who is now in 2 eme is also enjoying his "post" Brevet year. When I compare experiences with friends in UK who have teenagers at school there, we are all glad we had the chance to finish the kids education in France - ours certainly feel they've earnt and deserve their exam results, and I don't think they will every feel they can't do or achieve something in the future if they set their mind to it.

[Pangur]

It's a case of better the devil you know... Having gone through the Irish educational system, I wouldn't put my kids into a English/Welsh secondary school.  I think it's around 40% leaving full time education at 16? Crazy!! Indeed, it's one of the main reasons why I wouldn't settle in the UK.

Each country is going to have its own strengths and weaknesses - the French system will be geared towards French society, and that's the society your kids will be living in.

 

 

[wishiwasthere]

Hi all

I have read this forum with interest.  I am desperate to move to the Var district of France but as a single Mum with a l4 year old I am one minute too scared to contemplate it and the next on the verge of packing up and leaving.  My son is currently at a private school and his grasp of french is not brilliant.  He enjoys IT and Design & technology and Art (and acting) but is not particularly academic.  I have thought about putting him into an English speaking school, but the only one is this area is in Cannes which would be about 2 hours from where I would like to be.  I am really worried that at his age and currently studying for GCSE's next year moving him would be a disaster.  But if I leave it any longer it will be even worse.  Advice and Help please!!!

 

 

 

[Val_2]

14 is a difficult age in France because the kids have to start to decide which Lycée and what course they wish to follow at that age AND concentrate on working towards their Brevêt exam. If it was my child, I would wait and see the UK exams out first because no matter how good or how bad your child is in french language and grammar, there are many other subjects that he would have to catch up on going back four years or more to primary and then there is the different system here i.e. longer working days and lots of homework. There is also the second compulsory language to learn as well being either Spanish or German and/or Latin for those going into medecine and I am afraid most provincial collèges do not give special tutoring for foreign students as there is not the finance available and teachers here are much more militant in that once 5pm arrives, they are off home. Making friends too will be difficult as within 18months everyone will be leaving and going elsewhere and Lycée is a whole different kettle of fish compared to collège with as many as 2000 pupils in a lot of establishments. This is based upon my own personal experience of two children going right through the system from early primary to Education Superior for the 20 year old and other members views will vary according to their experiences.

[Mistral]

teachers here are much more militant in that once 5pm arrives, they are off home

5pm!! No way. I'm off home at 4.30

I quite agree with what Val's says. I don't have 14 year olds (yet), but I work with them. The language and school style differences are enormous and from the beginning of 4eme, most collèges gear everything to taking the brevet and going on to lycée. Even schools with FLE (francais langue etrangere) hours, don't have enough. We were supposed  to have 21hrs, got 11 and each child gets 3 (in small groups). Very few teachers would contemplate giving up spare time to help if they weren't paid for it. (I am going to throttle the French teacher who runs the theatre club soon -she does it out of choice, nobody asked her to, but she keeps going on and on about how she isn't paid, should be paid and will stop doing it if she isn't paid... -it's a lunchtime club for goodness sake )

[wishiwasthere]

Hi

 

Thanks for your comments.  What are your views on the English speaking schools.  I know there is one in Cannes - any opinions anyone?

[Stuart & Elayne]

We too are now extremely worried about education after reading the many concerns and problems lots of you seem to have experienced.  It has certainly given us even more food for thought!

We are in the process of buying a property close to Lectoure in the Gers with the intention of making the permanent move in July 2005.  We have a 17yr old daughter who will have just completed her A Levels here in the UK.  She is coming with us for her gap year with contingency plans all prepared for the following year.  Our concern is our 11 yr old son who will be entering the French school system.  He is having french lessons both at school and privately so hopefully will have some conversational skills at least.  Does anyone have any information, recommendations or experiences regarding the schools in the area?  We would really appreciate any help, guidance, tips, advice....anything in fact!  We would also be interested to know if there are any other English children of a similar age in the area as this may smooth the transfer somewhat.

 

[Richardbk]

"Our concern is our 11 yr old son who will be entering the French school system.  He is having french lessons both at school and privately so hopefully will have some conversational skills at least.  Does anyone have any information, recommendations or experiences regarding the schools in the area? "

I too would be worried about your 11 year old - this is too old to think about changing education, that is assuming you want the best. The oldest age at which to contemplate making such a move should  be 7-8. After this age the method of learning for children starts to change to that of adults -it becomes significantly more difficult. This coupled with the uncompromising french system (private or state) causes significant problems. Many of my colleagues that arrived with kids of this age, ended up sending them back to boarding school and or returning to the UK, D or NL ,ES, I  etc. They are somewhat lucky in that our organisation pays the fees for this. Other cases I know are of are kids bunking of school and walking the streets as they simply can not cope with the stress/embarrassement. The French system is difficult for the average French kid, let alone those that enter it late. France has a serious problem with  its drop out rates and uneducated school leavers - hence they are trying to change the system - but don't expect it to change much within the the next 5 - 10 years.

Of course on this forum you will find mostly those parents/kids for which it did work -the reason is simple The others are too embarrassed or proud to admit to making a mistake or letting it be known that little Johnny  isn't in fact top of the class, but in fact right at the bottom with the other 'redoubles'.

The french system makes no allowances for not speaking the langauge- he will either be demotivated by being put down 1 or 2 years or by the fact that his writing and reading skills will be seriously wanting. None of his school reports will consider he is not French, he will simply be marked and recorded as being way below average. This will limit opportunities later in terms of good university places and hence jobs etc. The french system is elitist, centralised, inflexible,prescriptive and dehumanising - and since teachers are appointed centrally with no headmaster or governor say, there is a clone type mentality with little variation from school to school.

The British school in Toulouse would probably be far better suited to needs of your son, but this is some distance from where you are moving to.

regs

Richard

Apologies to all those of you that are in the French education system - I'm sure you are all trying to change the way it works.

[grahamh]

"The french system makes no allowances for not speaking the langauge"

 - and what other system would?

"None of his school reports will consider he is not French"

- and, in France, why should they?

"The french system is elitist, centralised, inflexible,prescriptive and dehumanising"

 - AKA it attempts to apply an albeit imperfect education system across the board to the (ideally) benefit of all.

 "and since teachers are appointed centrally with no headmaster or governor say, there is a clone type mentality with little variation from school to school"

 - again, an attempt to smooth out the wrinkles that a regional system perpetuates.  Educate your six year-old in the state system in Lewisham - you'll suss out what they're trying to do in France I think.....

I'm not defending or attacking any one system, but you must stop generalising on the basis of your own bad experiences or limited opinion.  It may get a reaction, or derive you satisfaction but I'm it worries people immensely without proper cause.

Share your mistakes by all means, and no one would turn down the benefit of experience but sweeping statements in such areas are rarely well-considered, and do not engender reasoned debate, merely escalating tales of doom and horror.

Sorry if I quoted you incorrectly.

 

Graham

[Deby]

Very tough words were spoken from the above poster! These words need to be said.  There are success stories which of course there will be.  It all goes to show that our children are not the same.  So what does one do.  The system is as Richard said (I think the poster is called) is they way it is and some children do progress well under this system. Ask yourself will your child? 

My 6 year (Grande Section) in my opionion needs to be stimulated more at her school as she is ready to take in more, my friend in the UK has a child the same age and is being pushed by the system to achieve more. So what does one do move the child to a country more suited to their needs, of course not.  Our little beings are complex creatures with simple needs.  The question of education is a difficult one and I am still growing with the system here and have my opinions with regard to the future and these may well change.

I would like to build upon the point about Headmasters/mistreses (HM's).  In France their role is not really the same as the UK. Here these HM's are paid a little bit more (I'm talking about primary here as I dont know about Secondary) more to perform this role which comprises of admin + teaching.  The teachers report not to the HM's but to an Inspector of Schools (a government body). The HM's have very little power.  Some do like to wield what they have though.

Deby

 

[Richardbk]

 "but you must stop generalising on the basis of your own bad experiences or limited opinion. "

Having been in france nearly 12 years, with all our kids (all born here) going through the system , and working with  250+ international colleagues that are in the main doing the same thing I think I(we)  know a little about the system. Do you ?

I certainly do not have limited knowledge.  I speak with experience from myself and others... and BTW I was not comparing it with the UK system - the French system stands on its own as being poor - just look at the results coming out the other end. It is an elitist system  principally organised to deliver the best to the top 20% - the rest just fall  by the wayside.

regs

Richard

 

 

 

 

[grahamh]

I think you are right, because of and inspite of your limited experience, you do know only a little of the system.  This absolutely DOES NOT qualify you to generalise in the terms that you do.  It qualifies you merely to share your own bad experience.  this is the only point I make.  And I do not wish to question your right to comment. 

Perspective is the key in emotive debates such as education,  where those less 'experienced' than yourself may take your comments without the required pinch of salt and be unduly concerned.

A little perspective please.

[Richardbk]

[quote]I think you are right, because of and inspite of your limited experience, you do know only a little of the system. This absolutely DOES NOT qualify you to generalise in the terms that you do. It q...[/quote]

your very patronising  - is this perhaps to make up for any real lack of knowledge of the subject i.e there is nothing to argue about apart from the manner in which it is put across.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - these are not just my own experiences. I think with the number of examples and with our  knowledge of the system this is a pretty good overal picture. If you read the newspapers, watched the news, go to parent evenings, talk with teachers , parents  - seven  schools so far for us and discuss with collegues  that are doing the same thing, then I think we have a pretty good overview of the system and the results speak for themselves-so perhaps we do not have such a one sided view as you may think.

Even the government thinks its bad - hence it is trying to change it.

regs

Richard

 

[Miki]

Richard,

I have generally agreed with your sentiments on French schooling and it's many faults and downfalls but the "age thing" you say should be 7-8, I have to disagree with. The age group you suggest has the best chances is to my mind and experience too general.

We have know several families come here with kids of that age who have done very well, extremely poor and johnny average. Ours were at your perfect age, experience has shown us that they never had a good enough grounding in language, English in particular before arriving here, albeit son 's was German and English and daughters French and English. They had a decent standard of English, which meant it was not so easy to lose whereas many a 7 year old can lose their English grammar pretty quickly. We paid for extra tuition which we feel has repaid itself. No, I would certainly say from experience, around 10 would be best for the average child.

I most certainly would not recommend anyone bring kids here too early, unless they are 100% sure they will never go back. I have seen kids come here early and as English is taught as a foreign language of course, meant their English was no better than many French. OK their oral was better but their grammar was certainly none too clever. We know of a few who have gone back and their English was so bad (based purely on phonetics in many cases) it took them ages to catch up at their new school. Similar then to English kids learning French at school in the UK. How many leave with even a sentence in their head !!

Of course on this forum you will find mostly those parents/kids for which it did work -the reason is simple The others are too embarrassed or proud to admit to making a mistake or letting it be known that little Johnny  isn't in fact top of the class, but in fact right at the bottom with the other 'redoubles'.

I am afraid that sadly that can be so true, my heart goes out to many kids who really have never wanted to be here and are here purely at the whim of the parents, who equally struggle with earning a living.  Harsh, yes but we have seen it all too often.

The french system makes no allowances for not speaking the langauge- he will either be demotivated by being put down 1 or 2 years or by the fact that his writing and reading skills will be seriously wanting. None of his school reports will consider he is not French, he will simply be marked and recorded as being way below average. This will limit opportunities later in terms of good university places and hence jobs etc.

Absolutely true and how many times have we heard parents say "it's not fair he/she is Englsih what do they expect", well like you say, they expect the children to keep up with all the others, no excuses. It was the hardest part of coming to terms with CM days and then early collège. Ours had NO help whatsoever from the schools, only what we paid for with the private tuition we felt was crucial.

The french system is elitist, centralised, inflexible,prescriptive and dehumanising - and since teachers are appointed centrally with no headmaster or governor say, there is a clone type mentality with little variation from school to school.

I totally agree but I am touching wood now, when I say daughter is really happy with her small Uni, where at last, after all her CM/collège/lycée years she feels she is a person at last and gets involved with the school and it's many activities. I guess now, it finally feels like it has been worth it but the many years of heartache will not easily be forgotten.

 

[grahamh]

Apologies if I sound patronising.

What education system in the World does not require improvement?

And I have seen no rose-tinted views on this board at all.  Nothing but negative sentiment in fact.  Yours is just the latest in a line of doom-laden sentiment posted to frighten the living poo out of already concerned parents.  Whether or not it is based on your own or 250 collegues experience it is still just that and should be framed accordingly.  there is nothing so patronising as assuming that your audience can and should benefit benefit from your highly charged and personal opinion notwithstanding context.

My experience I see no need to justify.  I do not desire a weeing-contest.

 

[Teamedup]

Grahamh, I  appreciated Richardbk's thread.

If it worries people, well let it. For some bizarre reason, which makes my brain spin, french education has got good press in the UK. Why, beggars belief. And it has become some sort of belief now. This good press, like much in the press has little to do with reality, or real life. If people come here with preconceived ideas where is the perspective anyway.

Ofcourse some kids will do well here. And I have NEVER said differently. But not all kids will do well, in spite of the general impression the posters on here give that just about all the children living here are doing well. Just look at some of these questions that get asked on here, we aren't all genii and our kids won't be either.

And there hangs the problem, being average isn't good enough. Being bright and a having a problem isn't good enough. Being slightly thick may pass, the teachers will give up on them pretty quickly. IN fact I've seen 'nice but dim's' go straight through the system until they can get them in a SECPA and filtered away from main stream.

Satisfaction about posting these things, non, never have.  And I would be surprised if others had has any such thoughts either. Did your posting give you satisfaction Grahamh?

[grahamh]

I just don't really understand why you people have to be so blooming negative about the education system.  Of course it has failings - is the fact that English is taught as a "foreign" language really one of them - or the root cause of a few issues perhaps.

Why on earth you lot left blighty until your kids were 25 I don't know....

And Miki  - don't affirm other people's views so readilly - it makes me queasy.  (you're the spit of that old West Ham striker btw...)

 

[Miki]

 I just don't really understand why you people have to be so blooming negative about the education system.  Of course it has failings - is the fact that English is taught as a "foreign" language really one of them - or the root cause of a few issues perhaps.

Well perhaps it is because of the experience we have all had of the French education system, none of say it for fun I'm sure. What I meant by English as a foreign language is simply, don't expect sonny Jim (or Jenny) to be that great in English (some may go on to Uni I guess, to improve their all round English, I don't know of one though) if they start here at a very young age, which some people may see as vital to their childs education.

Why on earth you lot left blighty until your kids were 25 I don't know....

How can telling the truth as we have found it, be seen so strangely as that ? We only found out by our kids going through the system, they didn't let any of us know about all of this free advice on education, that people on here get these days

And Miki  - don't affirm other people's views so readilly - it makes me queasy.  (you're the spit of that old West Ham striker btw...)

Not so much of the old thank you  

 

 

[Teamedup]

To be fair, when I arrived here there was no spin or hype that it was better here. In fact I was completely ignorant of the system.  I had no kids either.

Any judgements I have made over the years have not had the outside influence of the utter balderdash you have been 'gaver'd' in the UK. How many times  people have to read or be told that it is better here to think it is so. Part of the package that one hears about France and some of the rest is not quite kosher either.

It isn't my fault that I didn't get brainwashed or whatever. 

There is one thing I know and will be convinced of  to my dying day, and that is IF the french education system worked, the french would rule the planet. 

[Dick Smith]

"There is one thing I know and will be convinced of  to my dying day, and that is IF the french education system worked, the french would rule the planet."

You mean they don't? Will you tell them, or shall I?