Driving on Vegitable oil, cost of oil

[andyh4]

Just for fun I did a bit of research.

 

Oilseed rape will produce between 1-4te seed per hectare with an oil content of 42%.

OPEC pumps 25 million barrels per day and is about 50% of the total world oil production.  So if we assume that we could use oilseed rape (or equivalent) to replace all of our natural oil requirements and that the production efficiencies would be the same, we require just short of 20,000,000 square kilometres of land to produce one year's worth of oil production based on the upper yield figure of 4te oilseed/hectare (achievable as an average only through genetic engineering methinks).

To put this into context, this is 10% more than the entire Russian land area from Poland to the Pacific Ocean or nearly five times the size of the enlarged European Union.  Both figures not allowing for inconviences such as mountains, lakes, cities and roads etc nor ideed for the use of this land to produce food crops and timber - still the remaining 58% of the oil cake is rich in protien, so maybe food is not an issue - anyone got a recipe for oilcake fricasee?.

 

Clearly other crops will generate different yields, and rape is not suitable for all climates.  But I think you can see that the problem is that we are simply consuming too much oil to be able to think about oil plants as a major alternative.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Just for fun I did a bit of research.

 

Oilseed rape will produce between 1-4te seed per hectare with an oil content of 42%.

OPEC pumps 25 million barrels per day and is about 50% of the total

world oil production.  So if we assume that we could use oilseed

rape (or equivalent) to replace all of our natural oil requirements and

that the production efficiencies would be the same, we require just

short of 20,000,000 square kilometres of land to produce one year's

worth of oil production based on the upper yield figure of 4te

oilseed/hectare (achievable as an average only through genetic

engineering methinks).

To put this into context, this is 10% more than the entire Russian

land area from Poland to the Pacific Ocean or nearly five times the

size of the enlarged European Union.  Both figures not allowing

for inconviences such as mountains, lakes, cities and roads etc

nor ideed for the use of this land to produce food crops and timber -

still the remaining 58% of the oil cake is rich in protien, so

maybe food is not an issue - anyone got a recipe for oilcake

fricasee?.

 

Clearly other crops will generate different yields, and rape is not

suitable for all climates.  But I think you can see that the

problem is that we are simply consuming too much oil to be able to

think about oil plants as a major alternative.

[/quote]

Yeah - I did this calc too. I got very excited about the idea of

everyone driving around on Mazola and Flora and then realised (as you

point out so clearly) that France could not actually physically grow

enough oil crops to satisfy its own needs, let alone have any over to

supply anyone else. And then there is the small problem of growing

food. Oil cake from rape is OK in small amounts (if you are a cow) but

in large amounts, I am told, gives rise to the most terrible squits (at

least it does in cows - I've not tried it myself). There are some

projects in the "bucket" stage of development that involve growing

oil-rich algae on the surface of the barren mid-ocean (also has the

benefit on paper of establishing vibrant - and harvestable - additional

fish populations in otherwise empty sea), but even the most optimistic

of these appearantly needs $120 per barrel oil to make anything like

sense.

Climate change aside, even the most demented petrol heads are going to

have to face up to the idea that in the absence of some as yet

unforeseen technological miracle, we are not as a race going to have

cheap fuel for cars for much longer. There's a lot of press about the

hydrogen ecomomy, but hydrogen is most easily made from - whoops - oil

and gas. It can be made from biomass, but space is still a problem, and

it can be made from water by electrolysis - but that needs mucho 'lecy

that in turn has to be made somehow (nuclear anyone?). Back to the

drawing board. Anyone want to go halves on a horse?

[bedders]

andyh4 & jond indicated the almost incredible logistics of providing enough veg oil for our future transport needs, and touched on the subject of the energy requirements to refine rape & sunflower oil.

Many years ago i worked for a Unilever subsidiary in Kent which refined edible oils and the amount of electricity and steam required to produce the final product was quite astonishing. I suppose if we can in time increase the % mix, (diesel to veg oil) this will eek out the dwindling oil reserves and reduce emissions slightly.

In the meantime Tescos are quite happy to sell me 3 litre containers of rapeseed oil for "personal use only"  

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="bedders"]

andyh4 & jond indicated the almost

incredible logistics of providing enough veg oil for our future

transport needs, and touched on the subject of the energy

requirements to refine rape & sunflower oil.

Many years ago i worked for a Unilever subsidiary in Kent which

refined edible oils and the amount of electricity and steam required to

produce the final product was quite astonishing. I suppose if we

can in time increase the % mix, (diesel to veg oil) this will eek out

the dwindling oil reserves and reduce emissions slightly.

In the meantime Tescos are quite happy to sell me 3 litre containers of rapeseed oil for "personal use only"  

[/quote]

You've reminded me now: it is possible to make the whole process of

biodiesel manufacture carbon nuetral by BURNING to oil cake to raise

steam. Knew there was something to be done with it! It would be

possible to do a lot to eek out supplies but convincing people to do

them is entirely another matter.  Too many people regard the use

of (ahem!) public transport, for example, to be a personal affront for

this to make much short term impact. The changes in habit required will

never be undertaken voluntarily - they will be forced upon us either by

circumstance or economics.

[Brilec]

[quote user="jond"] Too many people regard the use of (ahem!) public transport, for example, to be a personal affront for this to make much short term impact. The changes in habit required will never be undertaken voluntarily - they will be forced upon us either by circumstance or economics.
[/quote]

Public transport? I think that generally means the autobus. Haven't seen one of those in our part of rural France.

[condorman]

Hi All, in reply to a previous post about quantities of rapeseed needed to provide us all with alternative fuel, Im not diloooooshunal, yer right if tomorow we all tried driving on veg there would be a problem, there isnt enough, and to make enough it would have to be grown just about everywhair,  what im saying is there is absoloutly no doubt that we will have to use an alternative fuel in the future, were not all going to start tomorow, but some of us will, and a gradual change is what is needed, so why not start now,   unfortunatly we all love the shiney thing with 4 wheels parked outside the house and we love driving it even more, unfortunatly our driving habbits are going to have to change too, well have to cut down on the miles,   lets say the gov takes the tax off of veg oil, I reckon instead of making a saving there will be percentage of people who drive more as the fuel is cheaper, this wont help our situation, veg oil is great for the enviroment, if with GM we can make a faster crop rotation and increace productivity that will help with the fuel supply, all this is something thaT WILL take time, and as the time goes on, advances in science and engenering will make vehicles more ecconomical and more renewable energy available, its no use now saying "aaa if we all go to veg oil there wont be enough so im not going to even think about it, its pointless, " thats a crackers responce,   were can currenly drive on veg for about the same price as can diesel, but whats the incentive, were just thinking about our pockets too much, In Mexico there extracting a diesel fuel from rubbish, and there actually making a good quantity of quality fuel from something that would be burried in the ground or burnt, as time goes by well find more alternatives, have you noticed the big petrolium comps. are buying up land? we all know what we need to do, just lets face it we dont reely want to face up to it, live for now and itll be someone elses problem later on, recycle everything, drive less, switch that landing light off, we dont want to doo that, we can aford it, whaaaaaayyyy crikey im waflin, sorry fer going on and on and on, opps gota go stick an energy bulb in the hall, chow fer now, mark 

[chris pp]

Please, please,don't use the environmental argument it really doesn't stack up. Stick to the fact that it's cheap, for now that is, until it really starts to compete with food production in the world market place.

I don't know whether it's been sorted out or not yet, but the idea in France is that farmers will be able produce their own to fuel their machinery tax free, a sort of self sustaining cycle which is probably quite a good idea even if it does stick in my throat a bit.

Chris

[condorman]

Please please please, please, please, please, please, please,I cant see how it doesent stack up, look at the cycle of the crop, look at what energy is given up by it and its total usage, then look at petrolium distilates, theres a finite quantity divided by time, any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, I got a French Farmer friend who grows his own, he's minimising his impact by growing rapeseed, it feeds the animals, powers the car and the tractor, and is burn in his oil fired heating system to heat his house, along with chicken dung, 

anyway what are you saying, in the uk it costs the same as diesel to run on ppo, say 43p a ltr veg plus 47.1 tax, so why are people doing it, the car runs smoother, smells better and ill have to sneak this one in shuuuuuu, ITS GREAT FOR US AND THE PLANNET, whoooooo, you gota start somewhair, if as many people as pos can have a minimal impact thats gota be a good thing dont ya think,  someone mentioned running on 28 sec kerro, yeep its cheap and illegal and a petrolium distilate, but doesent lubricate yer motor, makes it sound like an old soweing machine, mix with veg to add lube, chow, chow chow, m

[chris pp]

By and large I agree with Jond, so that saves me some writing.

Condorman, please tell me how it's great for the planet, other than the fact that it is, with a bit of tinkering, carbon neutral and at the same time, if you would, please tell me where the foods going to come from for the human population and how biodiversity will be protected.   The continuing well being of this planet is right at the top of my agenda, so it goes without saying that I would support anything that made real sense and wasn't just another commercial proposition laced with red herrings and Government cop-outs.

I look forward to your "complete case" on saving the planet.

Cheers, Chris

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="chris pp"]

Please, please,don't use the environmental

argument it really doesn't stack up. Stick to the fact that it's cheap,

for now that is, until it really starts to compete with food

production in the world market place.

I don't know whether it's been sorted out or not yet, but the idea

in France is that farmers will be able produce their own to fuel their

machinery tax free, a sort of self sustaining cycle which is probably

quite a good idea even if it does stick in my throat a bit.

Chris

[/quote]

Chris - Possibly off topic (but what the hell) - it is quite

interesting to consider how the production of biodiesel sits in terms

of CAP reform. As we all know from reading the Daily Mail (so it MUST

be true [:D]), farmers in France have been fleecing the British

taxpayer for many moons for subsidy money that they then use to buy

Mercedes cars and holiday homes in Reunion (though most of the ones I

know seem to be driving around in 10 year-old Renaults and their wives

have to work at least part time to make ends meet - some kind of

smokescreen, obviously).

Now, this cannot be the only part of France where talk has turned to

the setting up of small biodiesel production facilities, shared between

several farms, and using not only locally grown oil crops but also

ethanol from maize. Bear in mind that the technology we are talking

about here is not that that would be required for petroleum

refining - this really can be done (with care!) in a garage.

Selling biodiesel at a price competitive to conventional diesel raises

the value of the feedstock crops to far in excess of their value in the

food chain...and and should pretty much lift revenues to the point

where subsidies would no longer be payable or would be very much reduced. The goverment can afford to

be generous on the duty side because there really is little likelyhood

that sales of petroleum fuels will show much decline. Rather neatly,

this could, in a few years time, allow the French government to agree

to wide ranging reforms of the CAP (VERY face saving indeed) and allow

the EU to come in line with what the WTO wants in terms of market

access. The US would be in a position to do pretty much the same (in

terms of bioethanol production for gasoline use they are years ahead

anyway). Of course, it would mean that either a) food prices have to

rise, or; b) supermarkets have to take a profits hit (I wonder which?),

and in terms of sustainable development and biodiversity it stinks, but

it is potentially all rather tidy, is it not?

[chris pp]

The only difficulty I have with your idea is that either France or the USA has any intention of giving up their subsidies, it's a case of having their cake and eating it.

Couple of interesting "snippits"

        "French train drivers still receive something called La Prime De Charbon, the coal bonus, first awarded in the age of steam. And the drivers of the SNCF national railway system will go to the barricades to defend it decades after they last set foot on a steam train.For the coal bonus is just one small example of what is known in France as "les avantages acquis", the accrued benefits (or accumulated rights) which the French believe have been fought for over decades, which represent social progress and hallmark the French way of life.    And which must never be given up".   ( Source BBC).      (The key words are "which must never be given up"   Very French! )

        "In this new world of high-priced oil, the price of oil begins to set the price of food not so much because of rising fuel costs for farmers and food processors (although that is a factor) but because almost everything we eat can be converted into fuel for cars. Supermarkets and service stations are starting to compete in commodity markets for basic food commodities such as wheat, corn, soybeans, and sugar. Wheat going into the market can be converted into bread for supermarkets or ethanol for service stations. . Soybean oil can go onto supermarket shelves or it can go to service stations to be used as diesel fuel. In effect, owners of the world's 800 million cars are competing for food resources with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day.      

Faced with a seemingly insatiable demand for automotive fuel, farmers will want to clear more and more of the remaining tropical forests to produce sugarcane, oil palms, and other high-yielding fuel crops. Already, billions of dollars of private capital are moving into this effort. In effect, the rising price of oil is generating a massive new threat to the earth's biological diversity".    

 Source  http://www.earthpolicy.org 

 

I would think that by the time of the next review of the CAP, which France has only agreed to talk about, the game (and the world) will have moved on substantially, in the meantime France and the USA, who are very similar in many ways, will only think of that which is in their own interests.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="chris pp"]

The only difficulty I have with your idea is

that either France or the USA has any intention of giving up their

subsidies, it's a case of having their cake and eating it.

[/quote]

If they (the EU and US) can get to the point where they CAN give up

their subsidies then they will, I think. At the moment this is

politically unacceptable, but if the land can be made to pay, the game

changes. This is nothing to do with generousity of spirit: they will

need to ensure that the food-producing South don't go all self

sufficient on them. That would be ugly.

Love the bit about the "coal bonus" by the way!

Jon