Loirette Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Hi Having recently exchanged my UK driving license to a French one, my husband decided that he should change his. So, today, off we go to the prefecture with the relevant documents, only to be told by the same women who had dealt with me, that he needed to produce a copy of form P237 which he could obtain from our tax office!Has anyone got any idea what this form is and why we would need to provide it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 A borderau P 237 is a summary of the taxpayer's situation. Basically, it shows that you are current with your payment of taxes.What this has to do with exchanging a driving licence is a mystery... [8-)]If this person is being awkward, could you try going another day and see somebody else? Or do it by post (details here)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote user="Clair"]What this has to do with exchanging a driving licence is a mystery... [8-)][/quote]An odd/mistaken way of proving French residence perhaps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 It seems to depend on who's on the desk and what today's instructions are from 'on high'It's a way of checking up on foreigners to see if they are declaring their income in FranceThe legality of it is highly questionable, but I suspect that if you stamp your feet and refuse the request you would be noted as a dodgy character. You might then receive a visit from the gendarmes or from a tax inspector.Some Hotel des Impots also sneakily check up on your tax & residency status when you go to get a Certificat de Dédouanement when re-registering a UK car in France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I see nothing wrong with checking legality at any opportunity that should arise provided it does not inconvenience the individual.If you are above board then you have nothing to fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="Bob T"]I see nothing wrong with checking legality at any opportunity that should arise provided it does not inconvenience the individual.If you are above board then you have nothing to fear. [/quote]Agreed !Certificat de Dédouanement = Quittus Fiscale ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Certificat de Dédouanement = Quittus Fiscale ?Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Certificat de Dédouanement = Quittus Fiscale ?Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loirette Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 ClairThanks for the info, we may try the post option. I also have no problem showing proof of payment of taxes, but firstly, this is not shown on their list of requirements on their official webpage, and secondly, we offered a copy of our 'Impot sur les revenus' but was told that this wasn't acceptable and we needed to obtain form P237. This will mean a round trip of 26 miles to our tax office. Not too far, but yes inconvenient! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasng4 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Just a thought if you exchange your UK license for a French one that means you will have points taken should you be caught speeding - I know if you get caught speeding you are supposed to exchange anyway but I was flashed a while ago, I paid the fine but the Gendames never cam calling. I discussed this with an ex municiple policeman who said it's a perk of being foriegn. Of course if you speed lots then I'm sure you will get a knock.P.S. I'm not advocating speeding at all but there are advantaged to not exchanging and you are not legally obliged to do so IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="tasng4"]Just a thought if you exchange your UK license for a French one that means you will have points taken should you be caught speeding - I know if you get caught speeding you are supposed to exchange anyway but I was flashed a while ago, I paid the fine but the Gendames never cam calling. I discussed this with an ex municiple policeman who said it's a perk of being foriegn. Of course if you speed lots then I'm sure you will get a knock.P.S. I'm not advocating speeding at all but there are advantaged to not exchanging and you are not legally obliged to do so IMHO[/quote]Do you ever drive in the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="tasng4"] I was flashed a while ago, I paid the fine but the Gendames never cam calling. I discussed this with an ex municiple policeman who said it's a perk of being foriegn. [/quote]A friend and his wife were both caught speeding. Both had UK licences at the time.He was flashed by an automatic speed trap and received a fine, which he paid. The penalty points mentioned with the fine were not questioned in any way shape or form and he never heard any more.She was caught by a mobile speed trap and the gendarme, on seeing she had a UK licence, specified in writing that she had to exchange her licence. She was contacted by the local plods some weeks later to ascertain she had exchanged her licence. Her new French licence record was amended to show her penalty points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="tasng4"] I was flashed a while ago, Ipaid the fine but the Gendames never cam calling. I discussed this withan ex municiple policeman who said it's a perk of being foriegn.[/quote]A friend and his wife were both caught speeding. Both had UK licences at the time.Hewas flashed by an automatic speed trap and received a fine, which hepaid. The penalty points mentioned with the fine were not questioned inany way shape or form and he never heard any more.She was caught bya mobile speed trap and the gendarme, on seeing she had a UK licence,specified in writing that she had to exchange her licence. She wascontacted by the local plods some weeks later to ascertain she hadexchanged her licence. Her new French licence record was amended toshow her penalty points.[/quote]Clair, does it not say on the fine notice whether points are deducted or not (OUI in a box on the form)According to our own font of knowledge, Sunday Driver, points nominally deducted whilst holding a UK licence are not recorded anywhere.In theory this seems to imply that if your car is not French registered either you can commit as many 'flash' speeding offences as you like with impunity and it's only if you get caught at the roadside, French or UK registered, that you will be fined and possibly ordered to exchange your licence.[quote user="Polly"]Do you ever drive in the UK?[/quote]Sorry Polly what is the relevence ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I would have thought the relevance of my question is obvious: if tsang4 (or anyone else) drives in the UK on a UK licence and is caught speeding they would suffer the appropriate fine & points penalty.This question of whether or not one is obliged to change a UK licence when one becomes resident in France has been debated over and over again in various forums, often with quite nasty and fierce exchanges. I'm not going to comment any further other than to refer anyone seeking info to http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1757.xhtml?&n=Transports&l=N19812&n=Permis%20de%20conduire&l=N530&n=International&l=N19126Relevant French law is at Code de la route : articles R222-1 à R222-8(sorry I can't get the link to work as a link, you'll have to copy and paste it unless/until a mod does it for me!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="Polly"]I'm not going to comment any further other than to refer anyone seeking info to http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/...Relevant French law is at Code de la route : articles R222-1 à R222-8[/quote][quote user="Polly"]sorry I can't get the link to work as a link[/quote]See http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1758955/ShowPost.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="Polly"]I would have thought the relevance of my question is obvious: if tsang4 (or anyone else) drives in the UK on a UK licence and is caught speeding they would suffer the appropriate fine & points penalty.[/quote]True but not obvious Polly, and even now you've explained I still don't see which part of tsang4's reply prompted or warranted a reminder of that.Did you understand it tsang4 ?FWIW if you got stopped for speeding in UK on a French licence you would still be at risk of being fined and having points awarded to your UK licence which of course still exists as far as DVLA are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Why would they want to award points against a UK licence that you no longer hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasng4 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I didn't want to start a new debate I merely point out there are advantages to not exchaning, obviously if the Gendames do tell you to exchange in order to have points deducted you will have to.Anyway it might be a moot point because as far as I know, in theory at least, there exists a system of having points added/deducted to/from your license accross boarders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyro Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 FYI you don't have to change your licence unless you get penalty points in france from what I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="tasng4"].Anyway it might be a moot point because as far as I know, in theory at least, there exists a system of having points added/deducted to/from your license accross boarders.[/quote]The current situation is that discussions have taken place at EU level, but at present there is no common 'points scale' system, ie infractions incur different penalties in different countries, and some award points whereas others deduct them from an initial 'credit'. Thus harmony between all states is not yet possible. France can't 'stick points' on a UK licence, and vice versa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote user="Sunday Driver"]Why would they want to award points against a UK licence that you no longer hold?[/quote]I did not say a licence you held but even if you have exchanged it for a foreign one you still exist on the DVLA computer.That being so if you commit endorseable offences in UK - and you go tocourt as is the only way a foreign driver can be prosecuted - then even though they cannot apply sanctions to your non UKlicence they can still record the points on your DVLA file and if you happened to return to UKand change your licence back any points so recorded and not spent would appear on it. By extension if you accumulated 12 such 'ghost' points theoretically at least you could be banned from driving in UK foreign licence or not. I guess in this situation the court could order you to exchange your licence in order for them to take it away, a bit like France really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Something to read if you're having trouble getting to sleep."There are three main projects set up to counter this. The Sparks Project(Shared Parking and Registered Keeper information Service)aims to stop non-UK nationals from not having to pay fines andcongestion charges. Their website has a lot of information aboutcurrent legislatory progress – basically 2011/12 at the earliest forcross-border enforcement!Eucaris is attempting tofacilitate cross-border exchange of vehicle registration details. Atpresent there is a trial in place to exchange data between France,Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Luxembourg and Austria. There is nosign yet of UK/France exchanges.VERA is the EU response tocross-border enforcement. At present the parliament is up to VERA3 inspecification terms, but there is little prospect of progress in thenear future. There is talk of a new EU licence from 2013 – so it may beworth ensuring you renew a national one before then! (Link seems to be dud)PS None of the information in this post can be considered as definitive – do your own research too! " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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