Howie Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 I sometimes travel from the UK to France towing a small car (-750Kilos) behind me on an "A-frame" rigid towing hitch. (That's the one which tows AND steers the car).However, I keep hearing that these towing devices are illegal because all four wheels should be off the ground; ie: all cars must now be towed ONLY on a full trailer.Is this true? Only, I often see camper vans on French roads - towing small cars behind them on an A-frame.Thanks.H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote user="Howie"]I sometimes travel from the UK to France towing a small car (-750Kilos) behind me on an "A-frame" rigid towing hitch. (That's the one which tows AND steers the car).However, I keep hearing that these towing devices are illegal because all four wheels should be off the ground; ie: all cars must now be towed ONLY on a full trailer.Is this true? Only, I often see camper vans on French roads - towing small cars behind them on an A-frame.[/quote]"A" frames and towing dollies are only allowed for the recovery of vehicles - in the UK or France. There are a couple of issues: one is that the mass of the car being towed that has to be taken into consideration is the GROSS mass, not the kerb weight. You don't say what the car is, but from what I have seen, the only sub 750kg gross mass car available is an Aixam.Have a look here and here for details.I looked at this in depth some time ago after acquiring a towing dolly.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Ariel Atoms are sub 500 kilos and there is now a rather nice V8 version available probably still under 750 kilos. Yes - probably more boring Axaim death trap rolling road-blocks have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Howie"]I sometimes travel from the UK to France towing a small car (-750Kilos) behind me on an "A-frame" rigid towing hitch. (That's the one which tows AND steers the car).However, I keep hearing that these towing devices are illegal because all four wheels should be off the ground; ie: all cars must now be towed ONLY on a full trailer.Is this true? Only, I often see camper vans on French roads - towing small cars behind them on an A-frame.[/quote]"A" frames and towing dollies are only allowed for the recovery of vehicles - in the UK or France. There are a couple of issues: one is that the mass of the car being towed that has to be taken into consideration is the GROSS mass, not the kerb weight. You don't say what the car is, but from what I have seen, the only sub 750kg gross mass car available is an Aixam.Have a look here and here for details.I looked at this in depth some time ago after acquiring a towing dolly.RegardsPickles[/quote] I think you maybe wrong Pickles? Have a look at "car a tow" website legals http://www.caratow.com/ Also the Smart car, curb weight is around 1600lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote user="Dog"]Ariel Atoms are sub 500 kilos and there is now a rather nice V8 version available probably still under 750 kilos. [/quote]What matters is the Max Authorised Mass, not the kerb weight. The kerb weight of the US roadgoing version of the Atom is 1375 lbs = 625 Kg: the MAM could well be somewhat higher. It might however just sneak under 750Kg, but then you have other problems.RegardsPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 On a practical rather than theoretical note, you are unlikely to be towing a smart car with a 100kg mec in each of the seats.To answer the OP's question on a anecdotal basis I have towed Caterham and Westield 7's on my 1" square 16g tube home made A frame weighing between 400 and 575kgs on many occasions both in the UK and France, my A frame neither steers nor brakes the towed vehicle but Mr Ackerman takes care of the steering.I have been stopped by the Flics in both countries and they have never tried to question the legality or nick me, The time I was stopped in France both vehicles were on UK plates and the flics were only intersted in seing the Carte grise for the tow vehicle and no other documents before sending me on my way.Actually I have towed a few times with a mannequin in the drivers seat and one one memorous occasion with a blow up doll in full regalia (dont ask!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote user="NickP"][quote user="Pickles"]"A" frames and towing dollies are only allowed for the recovery of vehicles - in the UK or France. There are a couple of issues: one is that the mass of the car being towed that has to be taken into consideration is the GROSS mass, not the kerb weight. You don't say what the car is, but from what I have seen, the only sub 750kg gross mass car available is an Aixam.Have a look here and here for details.[/quote] I think you maybe wrong Pickles? Have a look at "car a tow" website legals http://www.caratow.com/ Also the Smart car, curb weight is around 1600lbs[/quote]Re the Smart car: Kerb weight is around 750Kg but then there is a payload of around 240Kg, so the MAM is up around the tonne mark.Re Car-a-tow: I know what you mean, but since they are in the business of trying to get you to buy one, they are not exactly unbiased and independent, are they? And sources that have less of an axe to grind seem to disagree with Car-a-tow's conclusions. The other manufacturers/sellers of A-Frames carefully use the word "recovery" in their description. I would not want to be the test case ... neither I nor the suppliers would have the resources to defend a case (and they do not offer any back-up in this eventuality). The other issue is that the way that Construction and Use regs are being harmonised in Europe (admittedly very slowly and not immediately - but it is coming) seems to be towards the German model - ie if the device is not approved then it is not allowed. This was from one of the towbar manufacturers.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote user="Chancer"]On a practical rather than theoretical note, you are unlikely to be towing a smart car with a 100kg mec in each of the seats.[/quote]On a technical point, if you are using an A-frame, it does not matter what the ACTUAL mass of the towed vehicle is; what matters is the maximum that it is allowed to be (ie the weight of the towed vehicle when carrying its maximum payload).If you think about it, this corresponds with the situation regarding a trailer: what matters is its rated mass - ie max permissible payload plus the mass of the empty trailer, not the actual mass. Hence, a trailer which is rated to a max mass of 800Kg has to be fitted with brakes, even if it is only carrying 50Kg plus the mass of the trailer.Of course, if you put the car on to a car trailer, then what matters is the car's ACTUAL mass as a load rather than its max rated mass.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 ... and don't forget to have four wheels on your trailer then you can travel at over 50mph on the motorway in UK. Not a lot of people know that - is it the same in France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex H Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Trailer speed limit in the UK is 60mph (no mention of the amount of wheels)http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/speedknowyourlimits.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote user="Howie"]I sometimes travel from the UK to France towing a small car (-750Kilos) behind me on an "A-frame" rigid towing hitch. (That's the one which tows AND steers the car).However, I keep hearing that these towing devices are illegal because all four wheels should be off the ground; ie: all cars must now be towed ONLY on a full trailer.Is this true? Only, I often see camper vans on French roads - towing small cars behind them on an A-frame.Thanks.H.[/quote] Have a look at this site http://www.smart-tow.com/towframe.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote user="NickP"]Have a look at this site http://www.smart-tow.com/towframe.htm [/quote]Note that the site above appears to contradict the Car-a-tow site that Nick pointed out earlier, particularly in respect of the need for a servo booster.Look, I 'm not picking on Nick; it is just that if you choose to use an A-frame, you ought to be aware that you are operating in a legal grey area. Personally, I would be inclined to go for a trailer (especially one of the dinky ones specially designed for the Smart) and solve the problem that way. And indeed, when faced with that issue, that's the way that I voted with my wallet. I'll leave it at that.I believe that if you choose to tow a Caterham, either with an A-frame or on a trailer, you are likely to attract the attention of the gendarmes, but mainly because they want to have a closer look at such a lovely (and to them rare) vehicle.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Just a not to say thanks to everyone for their advice on this. As I'm only ever towing the vehicle 100 miles from the ferry to the house, I think i'll continue to risk it. it's towed by my english-registered van and I've been passed by many a gendarme without ever being stopped.Strangely, I saw yet another French-registered camper van on the N165 yesterday, towing a Peugeot 306 with a bog standard A-frame like mine!H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I have seen scores of French, Dutch and German registered campervans towing citadines on A-frames on the French roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote user="Tandem_Pilot"]Trailer speed limit in the UK is 60mph (no mention of the amount of wheels)http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/speedknowyourlimits.pdf[/quote]In France, so long as the max authorised mass of the combination of the towing vehicle and trailer is less than 3.5 tonnes, you can drive at the same speeds as if you were driving a sub 3.5 tonne vehicle without a trailer: ie 130 km/h on autoroutes, 110 km/h on dual carriageways, 90 km/h out of town and 50 km/h in town.If the max authorised mass of the combination of the towing vehicle and trailer (note: not the actual mass but the maximum it would be permitted to be according to the maker's plate) exceeds 3.5 tonnes, then, since June 2008 in France the max speed on autoroutes is 90km/h and 80 km/h on other roads (50 km/h in town) AND the combination is supposed to carry "80" and "90" speed restriction plates to the rear. 35€ fine for failure to carry the plates. This means that some surprisingly straightforward combinations are subject to these speed restrictions. Elsewhere it has been pointed out that with a given caravan, if towed with a Megane, the autoroute speed limit would be 130 km/h whereas the same caravan if towed by a C5 would be subject to the lower speed limits.I stand to be corrected on this, but if you are towing a trailer in France I understand that there is no restriction on entering the third lane (driving with a trailer in the third lane is not allowed in the UK). RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 A retired motorway cop that worked for me in UK told me it was legal for a four wheel trailer to be in the third lane of the motorway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 UK Highway Code:265The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes MUST NOT be used (except in prescribed circumstances) if you are drivingany vehicle drawing a trailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote user="Pickles"]The other issue is that the way that Construction and Use regs are being harmonised in Europe (admittedly very slowly and not immediately - but it is coming) seems to be towards the German model - ie if the device is not approved then it is not allowed. This was from one of the towbar manufacturers.[/quote]Having now checked, it appears that from November 2012, new trailers - even light trailers - will be required to have type approval.see http://www.vca.gov.uk/vehicletype/trailers.asp.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 The current regulations in France require all trailers to have type approval before they can be used on the roads (code de la route R321-4)The new 2012 changes will bring trailers within EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval so the availability of an EU certificate of conformity should simplify things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Pickles"]The other issue is that the way that Construction and Use regs are being harmonised in Europe (admittedly very slowly and not immediately - but it is coming) seems to be towards the German model - ie if the device is not approved then it is not allowed. This was from one of the towbar manufacturers.[/quote]Having now checked, it appears that from November 2012, new trailers - even light trailers - will be required to have type approval.see http://www.vca.gov.uk/vehicletype/trailers.asp.RegardsPickles[/quote]"The legislation will be implemented over coming years and the following linked documentation is intended to provide more information. In the meantime, existing National arrangements will continue to apply."And you can honestly tell me that with hand on heart you read and understood the rest of the information ? I thought there was a society for the use of plain English, where is it when it's needed? [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote user="NickP"][quote user="Pickles"]Having now checked, it appears that from November 2012, new trailers - even light trailers - will be required to have type approval. see http://www.vca.gov.uk/vehicletype/trailers.asp.[/quote]"The legislation will be implemented over coming years and the following linked documentation is intended to provide more information. In the meantime, existing National arrangements will continue to apply."And you can honestly tell me that with hand on heart you read and understood the rest of the information ? I thought there was a society for the use of plain English, where is it when it's needed? [:D][/quote]OK, I admit it; I am a very sad person: I read the rest of the information. My excuse is that I was having a bad day. Did I understand it? Hmmmmmm ... the edited highlights, perhaps. All of it? No chance - that would require ministerial level word-mangling talents.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 OK Pickles, you said it. But this is what forums are all about, different opinions and discusion. long may it continue. Cheers [B] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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