The 'rent b4 you buy' argument - some more views.

[Pangur]

Hmm, expats and now romantic pioneers: why can't Brits just call themselves immigrants like the rest of us   When I was an immigrant living in Britain, I certainly never heard any guff about our pioneering spirit moving to the UK. 

People have always moved around, whether out of economic or political necessity, or just because they fancy a change.  Most of the British moving now are simply making a lifestyle choice which has been made easier by the EU and rising house prices in the UK.  

I don't think you can equate the experience of Brits moving to France  now with 19thC emigrants. 

 

 

[Viv]

Pangur, I think you may have taken my comments out of context.

I regard myself very much as an immigrant, I was merely trying to emphasise that any person regardless of  colour race,creed or whatever that commits to moving to another country, particularly if it is a country with a different langauage / life style shows some kind of initiative - especially with those who have, through necessity or choice, turned into entrepreneurs.

As I clearly stated, the romantic idea that the word pioneer sums up, really is a myth.

However, I think that some parallels can be drawn vis a vis the US pioneers in that I'm sure that some people are 'pulled ' to France because they are Francophiles and genuinely believe there are opportunities / benefits that  they will find here and others that are 'pushed' here because they are not happy with life in the UK and could just as easily have ended up in Spain or Greece.

[Teamedup]

This is what I said as the pioneers had already been brought up:

 

The pioneer spirit, now that conjures something of a romantic notion, but coming to France.......?  Don't see that, don't get that at all. I've done a bit of lowering my standards since I 've been here at more than one point, I find no attraction in genteel poverty or living in isolated rural penury which the notion of the pioneer also summons up for me.

 

So not pioneers, if I didn't make myself clear.

I think that there are likely rather too many who end up failing in every sense of the word who come here in self inflicted ignorance. The tv can be wonderful, but those shows about moving to France are Barbara Cartland 'ish in their approach to life in France......... nothing like reality.

NB I do understand that not everyone who moves here fails. Not everyone who moves here and later leaves has failed either. Doesn't alter the fact that a great many people come, fail miserably and leave or would like to leave and can't.

[Russethouse]

>>So the Brits who moved to Spain with a job to go to were foolish<<<

We are not really comparing eggs with eggs here are we ?

How many male Brits move first then send for their families when they can afford it ? (perhaps 6 or 8 years later)

It is far more likely that UK families move as a whole,(either to Spain or France) and happy though I am that there is work in Toulouse that doesn't apply to the whole of France. One of their key problems seems to be unemployment.

Many peoples idea of moving to France is to move to a rural location, to work together in a B& B or Gite or an internet based job.

When you take into account the fact that many of them have no experience of people based services, catering or even being together 24/7 on a long term basis, have always lived in towns and also do not speak the language it seems to me that it gives quite a lot of scope for problems.

Unfortunately some of those businesses are hard to try without buying a substantial property first.

I wonder what the difference is between an awfully big adventure and an awfully big disaster?

As for my friends, listening to their story, I realized just how easy it was for one bad decision to lead to another, rather like a domino effect. In fact they could have easily let their property here and rented there, and I suspect thats what many families who move for work related reasons do, at least to start with.

[andyh4]

"they could have easily let their property here and rented there, and I suspect thats what many families who move for work related reasons do, at least to start with."

 

I agree Gay - and it applies to us.

 

The simple fact is that most international moves with work happen at short notice and are not planned even months in advance*.  Consequently the sheer time pressures mean that selling up in one country to buy in another is not practicle.  add to that that most companies will offeer good if not generous terms for holding two properties (one UK and one (probably rented) in new country) and the incentive to sell in the UK is minimal.

Compare that then with those who are planning a break and moving to something different.  Firstly note the "planning" word - means there is actually time to think about what it entails (although some don't).   It must be remembered that these people don't have the luxury of a company supporting their move financially and selling up may be the only way to finance their dreams.

 

* In my case, although the possibility of moving was discussed for some months, I was eventually shown a contract on 21st February and with a start date of 1st March.  OK this gave me a chance to think through the implications of a move in advance, but the actual logistics of finding a bed for the night at a week's notice - let alone somewhere to rent...................

 

[andyh4]

"they could have easily let their property here and rented there, and I suspect thats what many families who move for work related reasons do, at least to start with."

 

I agree Gay - and it applies to us.

 

The simple fact is that most international moves with work happen at short notice and are not planned even months in advance*.  Consequently the sheer time pressures mean that selling up in one country to buy in another is not practicle.  add to that that most companies will offeer good if not generous terms for holding two properties (one UK and one (probably rented) in new country) and the incentive to sell in the UK is minimal.

Compare that then with those who are planning a break and moving to something different.  Firstly note the "planning" word - means there is actually time to think about what it entails (although some don't).   It must be remembered that these people don't have the luxury of a company supporting their move financially and selling up may be the only way to finance their dreams.

 

* In my case, although the possibility of moving was discussed for some months, I was eventually shown a contract on 21st February and with a start date of 1st March.  OK this gave me a chance to think through the implications of a move in advance, but the actual logistics of finding a bed for the night at a week's notice - let alone somewhere to rent...................

 

[Teamedup]

Russethouse, that is exactly what happened in our case. He came over to see if the job suited before I had done more than just visit. Then I came and then later we decided to buy.

 

I haven't seen examples of that on here, I've seen many posts of women and children moving here and husbands continue to work in the UK or whereever and come to France when they can. Although the arrangements must obviously vary radically from family to family. It is something I could never have done at all. I would never remain in France as a woman alone and most certainly not with the kids.  Isolation / french societies constraints are not suited to me.

[letrangere]

In my case, although the possibility of moving was discussed for some months, I was eventually shown a contract on 21st February and with a start date of 1st March

Andy, I think you must work for my husband's former employer!  He had been making the occasional business trip to Paris over the course of several months but it was only on a Thursday that he was told he would be required there permanently from the following Monday. 

However, my current employer is more humain and we always insist on the whole family coming on a company paid "look see" visit no matter where they're moving to in the world.  This enables them to check out homes, schools, shops, etc. and get a feel for the place.  Not perfect but it's better than moving blind.

TU, why not France alone as a woman?  I have several British friends who live permanently - one in quite a rural location, though she works - on their own and we have a number on the Forum.  Managing on your own is the most important thing surely?  If you have the right approach you'll get on and fit in anywhere.  In quieter parts, eyebrows may be raised at first but I would argue there's generally little social stigma attached to this.  I was in Paris on my own for long periods of time and, as we've discussed here before, fear that inevitably I may be on my own permanently if OH goes before me.

M

[Motorhead]

I'm all for this pioneering spirit stuff as long as it doesn't extend to killing off the natives.

[SaligoBay]

why can't Brits just call themselves immigrants like the rest of us

LOL, we're just showing how au fait we are with French social values!   When French people talk about "immigrés" they generally mean the poor, non-white kind, the kind that get cramé in their not-so-chic Paris hotels, or who live in ghettos and bidonvilles round the big cities.

Most Brits-in-France just don't move in those circles! 

[Teamedup]

MWJ, I too know some british women living here alone. It would not suit me one little bit. Here is one of the questions from that Quiz Saligo posted last week, along with the 'answer'.

In France a woman on her own in the mid-to-late evening, dying for a drink, should  ... ?

a) Enter a café and drink standing at the bar
b) Enter a café, find a table and order a drink
c) Resist and go thirsty till getting home

It will depend on the place and the region and perhaps the class of café, but generally speaking c is most appropriate. a would be inappropriate and might lead to her being pestered. b is possible, but not recommended. If a woman is by or in a major railway station, no problem perhaps (but beware), but if in a small town and obviously not awaiting transport, her situation could be misunderstood and she might either be thought to be solliciting or seen as easily approachable. Males in France can be unabashedly predatory.

That certainly holds true around here. I would also be rather careful about where I stopped to drink or eat alone here during the day, never mind on an evening.

 

I know that I can't just pop round and see friends on an evening, and usually it is preferable if one is asked. I could join things, but that is formal. Where could I go and meet folks. Hard enough being able to see good friends. And it doesn't matter that I'm a mature woman, there are enough 'mature' men out there on their own  dragging. We had friends here a few weeks ago and they asked about the local bar. I have never been in and most certainly not alone. If I did I can guarantee that everyone in the village would know within a day. Just not done. The only 'ladies' in there serve behind the bar.

Wouldn't do for me at all. I would feel isolated and lonely.

[lola777Email [email protected]]

I am currently wanting to relocate to Burgundy, in particular, the Dijon region. I am 22 years old, and evidently, unable to come up with the cash to buy a property immediately. I want to gain an insight into the French way of life and immerse myself in the French culture. I do speak advanced French (from learning it at school, uni' etc etc), but no amount of textbook learning can be compared with learning the language first hand. If one is thrown in at the deep end, then I think that's the best way to learn. I've heard that the more willing one is to practise and communicate in French, then the more the French are willing to help one improve.
The only worry I have, is obtaining employment, and I am aware of the unemployment problem in France generally. I am a trainee lawyer in the UK, and I have a uni' degree, but I definitely do want to work, else, I will not be able to support myself. I think the only way forward is to rent-does anyone have any idea what the average rental is, and if properties are furnished or otherwise?
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
Louize