Registering your car in another department ...

[nectarine]

... I've been told that, since the change in registration plates in France (so they are no longer numbered to the department), you can register your car at any Prefecture.

I'd prefer to do this at a neighbouring prefecture, if it is legal, as I am trying to register a kit car. The last one went through fine but there are a few notoriously grumpy staff at my Pref., and they wouldn't accept the (almost identical) papers for this car. They then told me that the papers they had issued me a few months ago were "a mistake".

But a friend in a neighbouring dept. has few problems as cars of this type have been easily registered there, with identical papers. He says the staff are more clued up, etc., and so I'm wondering if I can go there with everything and get it registered with a more sympathetic or helpful Prefecture.

I'd be grateful for your advice. Thanks in advance.

[AnOther]

Don't know about the legality but it makes sense logically.

If it's not possible then here's a thought; if it's so much easier in the other department get your friend to register it in his name then immediately 'sell' it to you. With an existing Carte Grise re registering becomes a doddle [;-)]

It will cost you 2x the fee but what price the aggrevstion and frustration of an uncoperative Prefecture ?

 

[nectarine]

thanks ... that's a possibility and certainly a different way of approaching the issue.

Sunday Driver ... are you out there? Might you know the answer at all?

[Sunday Driver]

If you are supplying the required documents, ie V5C registration document, tax certificate, DRIRE/DREAL procès-verbal, CT certificate and identity/address proofs, there should be no reason for prefecture staff to be grumpy and refuse to process your carte grise application.

Which (almost identical) papers are they not accepting?

 

[AnOther]

Fine words from SD none of which will stop them doing it though will they [:'(]

On a different forum a well known member is being asked for a P237 tax form, whatever that is, to exchange a driving licence, guess what, her tax office say they doesn't know what a P237 either. It's been going on for 6 weeks.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2144818/ShowPost.aspx

There can scarcely be a one of us (SD excepted presumably) who has not encountered this behaviour in some form or another so saying there is 'no reason' for these things is patronising and facile !

Nectarine, why don't you print out SD's post and take it with you next time [I]

[Sunday Driver]

Oh dear.....

So I'm patronising and facile to wonder if the refusal on the part of the prefecture may just possibly be due to a problem with Nectarine's documentation.  That's why I've simply asked him/her to clarify matters, rather than launch into a rant against officialdom...[8-)]

 

[nomoss]

Over much of the last year I was trying to French register a Spanish car, which we owned and used there for 18 years. I had registered our Spanish VW camper here with no problems at all about a year earlier.

I had left the car in Spain until we finally sold up there. When I went to the Traffic Dept to declare its exportation they retained its registration certificate (Permiso de Circulacion), giving me an attestation in return, but let me keep its technical certificate (Ficha Technica)  (there are 2 bits of paper for Spanish private vehicles). When I had exported the VW they returned both to me stamped “Transferecia Intercomunitario” or suchlike.

As this was different fom the previous time I decided to check with the Prefecture before forking out for a CT.

Altogether I made 4 visits to the Prefecture, which resulted in having to supply some unneccessary documents including a Quittus fiscal, a Bill of Sale, and duplicate copies of Spanish documents, which meant 2 round trips to Gerona plus many hours queueing in the Trafico offices there. Their response to my problems in France recalled a phrase containing the words “pot” “kettle” and “black”.

Each time I went to the Prefecture there were different people in the vehicles section, who had different requirements from the last bunch. They were not particularly unhelpful, just wong, unfortunately.

There were some longish pauses in my efforts, when I became too annoyed to continue and had to wait until my patience recovered sufficiently to waste my time trying again.

Eventually it seemed everything was in order, so I took the car for its CT, but the station wouldn’t accept the papers the Prefecture did. Back to the Prefecture.

FINALLY, I managed to get the same person who last OKayed the dossier. He didn’t know what to do, so sent me upsatirs to see the boss.

She sifted through the mass of papers I had accumulated, removed several of them, including the Quittus, remarking “That’s not required”, not responding at all when I mentioned that each had been required by her staff downstairs. She also said the procedure in Spain had changed recently (by way of an excuse, I suppose).

 

Eventually she pronounced that there was no reason for the CT to be refused, and suggested I use a different CT station. I told her that was not convenient, and could she possibly phone my local one.

 

She agreed a bit reluctantly to phone the CT station. We had already been some time in her office and she was probably busy. I don’t know who replied, but I guess they argued the point, as the lady launched into a tirade about people who didn’t know their jobs, it was not their job to check documents, just to check the vehicle, and told whoever it was to have their management call her.

 

Back at the CT station next day, all smiles. I said that I thought the papers were OK now. The guy looked at them, same papers as before, less a few. “Ah, I didn’t notice that one” he said, pointing to one at random. I suppose he had to make some excuse.

 

I don’t find a lot of difference with bureaucracy in France, Spain or UK. Most problems are not due to grumpiness or officialdom itself, but to the staffs’ lack of knowledge, training, interest and enthusiasm. A lady in Swansea recently asked me if I’d changed a car’s engine, or its cc. (sic)

 

Having lived in places where the bureaucracy makes France’s seem like paradise, it doesn’t bother me here more than very briefly. I just have to think back to when it really affected my life.

 

[nomoss]

To add to the above, though. The nice thing in Spain is that they have "Gestors", who deal with all official procedures and sort out problems on one's behalf, for reasonable fees, or for a monthly retainer when one is in business and needs advice and assistance regularly.

The good ones are well trained and qualified, and keep up with changes in the relevant laws. Some specialise in business, advise on legal changes, look after tax and all the other returns one has to make. They basically employ people to stand in line in government offices to save you doing so, but also have an intimate knowledge of how it all works (or should work).

After the car registration in France was completed I received a bill for this year's Road Tax for it in Spain. Turned out the registration there had still not been cancelled.

I simply turned over the paperwork to a gestor specialising in vehicle matters in Gerona, where the (only) Trafico office for the Province is situated, via a gestor in Roses, where we were at the time.

I assume the Roses gestor takes a cut, but after 2 months the registration is now cancelled, final bill €67 with IVA. A lot cheaper than dashing back and forth and queueing in Gerona.

Wish they had gestors in France!

[AnOther]

The very fact that Gestors exist, fixers in many other languages, is a round condemnation of any system which requires such 'services' to manage what ought to be relatively routine matters.

What I wonder would have been the repercussions, if any, of just driving the car out of Spain without saying diddly squat to anybody. You would have still had all the original paperwork and I really don't think any prefecture in France would have cared a fig about where it had come from.

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]The very fact that Gestors exist, fixers in many other languages, is a round condemnation of any system which requires such 'services' to manage what ought to be relatively routine matters.[/quote]

I totally agree.But even UK has a mass of PFA's, for example, to guide people through a maze of regulations. What does that say about UK?

[quote user="AnOther"]What I wonder would have been the repercussions, if any, of just driving the car out of Spain without saying diddly squat to anybody. You would have still had all the original paperwork and I really don't think any prefecture in France would have cared a fig about where it had come from.

[/quote]

I'll never know. The Prefecture might just have wanted the bit of paper which said the car had been exported from Spain, and to see "Exported" stamped on the documents, to ensure it was not simultaneously registered in two countries.

But the whole point was to cancel the Spanish registration, which would have been impossible once the Spanish "papers" had been retained by the Prefecture. Unlike France, one pays an annual road tax in Spain, which can only be cancelled if the car is declared sold, scrapped, or exported. The original "papers" are required to do this.

In the event, the car was not "un-registered", or at least not quickly enough for me not to be billed for road tax (by the local town of residence, 57.60€ in this case) nearly a year after I declared it exported.

But I am sure the fact that I produced all the stamped documents given to me by Trafico at the time I declared it exported sorted out the situation.

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]The very fact that Gestors exist, fixers in many other languages, is a round condemnation of any system which requires such 'services' to manage what ought to be relatively routine matters.

[/quote]

On second thoughts, Gestors are replaced in the UK by a mass of advisory bureaux, taxpayer funded, who try to sort out bureaucratic problems created by other taxpayer funded entities.

And I think the general connotation "Fixers" denotes a certain illegality of operation of same. Gestors are professional people who can offer advice and help to operate legally.

[AnOther]

I can't agree that the term 'fixer' implies anything illegal or underhand. In the Middle East for instance it was virtually impossible to run a business without one and it was virtually a full time job getting visas, driving licences, other permits etc. all off which were normal and necessary but horrendously time consuming for those who didn't know their way around the systems or whose time was better utilised working and earning their living.

A lot of people seem to make a rod for their own backs by buying a car

in UK then registering it in their name in order to obtain an export

certificate from DVLA, a process which has absoloutely no value whatsoever and is completely unneccessary for the purposes of registering it in

France.

Other than the Quittus tax certificate Prefectures do not require any export documentation and with free movement there is, in reality, no such thing, just the formalities of registering in your country of residence. Neither can a car be simultaneously registered as the original registration document is surrendered at the moment of applying for registration elsewhere and is eventually returned to the country of origin for their authorities to record the fact that it is no longer in their territory.

I think that if you had left Spain completely without completing the formalities then the authorities would have had nowhere to send the tax bill (which you had paid for the year anyway), but even if not I doubt that they would tried to track you down for the sake of €57, and once they had been informed of it's registration in France, by receipt of the original registration document, they would have struck it off their list and that would have been the end of it.

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]I can't agree that the term 'fixer' implies anything illegal or underhand. In the Middle East for instance it was virtually impossible to run a business without one and it was virtually a full time job getting visas, driving licences, other permits etc. all off which were normal and necessary but horrendously time consuming for those who didn't know their way around the systems or whose time was better utilised working and earning their living.[/quote]

In my experience "Fixers" are people who transfer gratuities for services rendered to those in a position to make helpful decisions.

[quote user="AnOther"]Other than the Quittus tax certificate Prefectures do not require any export documentation and with free movement there is, in reality, no such thing, just the formalities of registering in your country of residence.[/quote]

I know that. Unfortunately the officials in the Prefecture did not.

[quote user="AnOther"]Neither can a car be simultaneously registered as the original registration document is surrendered at the moment of applying for registration elsewhere and is eventually returned to the country of origin for their authorities to record the fact that it is no longer in their territory.[/quote]

I asked about this, and was told that the original documents are not returned, but kept by the Prefecture.

[quote user="AnOther"]I think that if you had left Spain completely without completing the formalities then the authorities would have had nowhere to send the tax bill (which you had paid for the year anyway), but even if not I doubt that they would tried to track you down for the sake of €57, and once they had been informed of it's registration in France, by receipt of the original registration document, they would have struck it off their list and that would have been the end of it.

[/quote]

I receive a State Pension from Spain, so the police can easily get my details.

As for bothering to track me down, a friend moved back to UK from Spain, keeping an apartment there. He also sold his car, but the new owner did not register it, so it stayed in his name.

A couple of years later, in the absence of any bank accounts or other assets in his name (everything is tied together there via single ID number) his apartment was appropriated and sold at auction to pay for fines accumulated by the car. He did get the balance after the fines and administration charges were taken, but nowhere close to the value of the apartment, which he didn't want to sell in any case.

57€ plus surcharges, fines and surcharges for late payment, plus fines and surcharges on the unpaid fines and surcharges, with another 57€ becoming due each year, adds up pretty soon to  an amount worth recovering.

[AnOther]

I don't say that fixers don't do that but it is not a given, evidently we have experienced different fixers [:)]

I'm still pretty sure that it was only the lack of the original registration document which caused the problem at the prefecture. I don't have time to dig out the reference but the returning of a registration document is an EU wide standard procedure so possibly there was a misunderstanding about the term 'keeping', the meaning being that it was not returned to you but kept by them - to send back to the original country.

I did say if you had left Spain completely - including car.

Sorry but it sounds like your friend was a bit of plonker, who in their right mind would leave a car behind like that without ensuring that the formalities had been correctly completed [:'(]

 

[nectarine]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Which (almost identical) papers are they not accepting?

 

[/quote]

Thanks Sunday Driver, they wanted a 'numero de reception' which, as far as I understand, is a code under which this make of vehicle can be imported into France. However, my earlier car, on its Cert of Conformity, didn't have one and the operator wrote 'inconnu' and said that was OK as all the other European details were correct. Now the Pref. say that is wrong and I must have a number issued by the manufacturer, usually about 12 digits starting something like e2* ...' and want to know the French importer. Well there isn't a French importer, it's made in a small unit in the UK and sold to other European countries.

So I wonder if I can just go to the prefecture in another department where I am told they accept these vehicles quite happily. Do I have to register them in my own department?

[nomoss]

AnOther

It’s a bit bizarre that you suggested originally that I should have left Spain without completing the formalities, but you call George a plonker for doing just that.

There were other factors and details I didn't mention, as the point was not what he did, but an illustration of the determination of the Spanish system to pursue unpaid debts to the State, even quite small ones. I have heard that this is because this often results in more important discoveries being unearthed, as people tend to be more careless about minor details. That's the story, anyway, and at worst a lot of money is recovered with little effort, as the system is virtually automatic. I guess the debt is allowed to increase until it becomes significant enough to merit some effort to recover it. Not what I want to leave behind me.

After some 25 years living there I could go on all day with stories of bank accounts, boats, houses being sequestered, sometimes for fairly insignificant debts, some experienced by friends or customers, some hearsay.

The physical location of the vehicle is irrelevant. If it is registered in Spain it becomes due for Road Tax every year until the registration is cancelled, even if it is registered in France without the export procedure being followed. I also strongly doubt that the paperwork is returned promptly, if at all, to the previous country of registration.

 

I think this thread has been hijacked into a discussion about Spain for too long.

 

Mainly because you made queries/suggestions about my leaving Spain. I didn’t give any detail originally as it was not relevant to a thread on French bureaucracy.

[AnOther]

It's not the same situation though. I was comparing someone who has left Spain lock stock and barrel never to return, euphemistically you, with someone else, George, who has not. Obviously if that is not your case and you do retain property or assets there for the authorities to potentially sequester then you may leave yourself open to risk.

Regarding returned registration documents, if you look up a known vehicle on the DVLA site it will only have the export marker if they have received the V5 back from France, Spain, or wherever, as without that all they know for a fact is that a vehicle is untaxed and has allegedly been exported but could be anywhere. Of course nobody can force the Spanish authorities to comply with the rule however, whether by the official Spanish procedure or by French registration, the fact of the vehicle being registered elsewhere automatically supersedes and cancels any previous registration, just as an exchange driving licence automatically voids any other, but if you insist that despite this they would still pursue you for €57 then I happily bow to your knowledge of Spanish intransigence [;-)]

 

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]It's not the same situation though. I was comparing someone who has left Spain lock stock and barrel never to return, euphemistically you, with someone else, George, who has not. Obviously if that is not your case and you do retain property or assets there for the authorities to potentially sequester then you may leave yourself open to risk.[/quote]

So your advice, in essence, is not to bother about possible liabilities you leave behind in an EEC country so long as you leave no assets there.

[quote user="AnOther"]Regarding returned registration documents, if you look up a known vehicle on the DVLA site it will only have the export marker if they have received the V5 back from France, Spain, or wherever, [/quote]

I am familiar with the DVLA Vehicle Enquiry site. (Your link doesn't work, by the way). Your statement is not really correct, but I'll leave you to work out why.

 [quote user="AnOther"]but if you insist that despite this they would still pursue you for €57 then I happily bow to your knowledge of Spanish intransigence [;-)]
 [/quote]

I believe I qualified that to the principle that they would pursue debts which accumulated periodically when they reached a more substantial figure.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="nectarine"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Which (almost identical) papers are they not accepting?

[/quote]

Thanks Sunday Driver, they wanted a 'numero de reception' which, as far as I understand, is a code under which this make of vehicle can be imported into France. However, my earlier car, on its Cert of Conformity, didn't have one and the operator wrote 'inconnu' and said that was OK as all the other European details were correct. Now the Pref. say that is wrong and I must have a number issued by the manufacturer, usually about 12 digits starting something like e2* ...' and want to know the French importer. Well there isn't a French importer, it's made in a small unit in the UK and sold to other European countries. So I wonder if I can just go to the prefecture in another department where I am told they accept these vehicles quite happily. Do I have to register them in my own department?

[/quote]

Having been accused earlier on in this thread of being patronising and facile for not expressing the usual knee-jerk condemnation of your prefecture, it would now seem that it's your documentation that is not in order, so they were actually correct in refusing to accept them.  They have also been honest in admitting their error in accepting your earlier application. 

By law, your kit car must have the necessary type approval before it can be registered for use in France, so it's unlikely that your neighbouring prefecture would be prepared to deliberately break the law by issuing you with a carte grise without evidence of that approval.  As you are not in a position to supply a manufacturer issued approval, you will have to put your kit car through a DRIRE/DREAL réception de titre isolé (SVA inspection) in order to obtain the necessary approval certificate for registration. The background to the SVA and the practicalities of the process have been discussed at length in the past on this forum. 

Upside is, this one can't be trumpeted as a "1st hand horror story of how misinformed, obstructive, and uncooperative government departments and their staff can be"......[:P]

 

[nomoss]

I have 4 vehicles in France. Two have similar Cartes Grises, issued before Dec '08, the first imported from Spain, the second bought here. The other two have newer model CG's, the first bought here in March 2010, the second imported in April 2010. All issued by the same Prefecture. Yes, I collect cars.

All the CG's have section (K), described as "Numéro de reception par type (si disponible)"

The three earliest CG's have nothing entered in this section, although the No de R is on the C de C for the car imported in 2008.

The latest CG, issued in April 2010, for an imported car, does have the No de R on its CG, corresponding to that on the C of C.

I assume the No de R is not on the CG of the cars purchased here because it was not on the previous CG, and they are not going to require a C of C for a car already registered here.

Perhaps the entering of the No de R on the CG became obligatory just recently, and that is the reason for nectarine's problems compared with a few months ago.

Does anyone else who imported a car into France have the Numéro de réception not showing on their CG?

[Sunday Driver]

All cars must have type approval evidenced by their 'numéro de réception' before they can be registered for use on the road.  The French cars that you bought here were first registered by the original supplying dealer who provided a manufacturer '3 in 1' certificate (equivalent of the UK V55) showing the numéro de réception. When you registered your imported cars, you provided certificates of conformity containing their numéro de réception.  The completion of section K on a carte grise is optional - the very existence of the carte grise is proof that the vehicle is type approved.

Nectarine's problem stems from the fact that his car does not appear to have type approval, so no numéro de réception.....[:(]

 

[nomoss]

Thanks SD. It just seemed odd to me that the numéro de réception is not entered on the carte grise when it is required on the car's documents supplied for registration. Maybe there is some reason it should not be entered ? I read in one French blurb on the carte grise that the number may have some or all of the digits replaced by asterisks on some cartes grises.

Maybe their system(s) just wasn't set up previously to make the numéro de réception an obligatory field when entering the details.

[Will]

To try and answer the question without going off at tangents, the official information put out by our own préfecture (and there is no reason to suppose others have substantially different rules) indicates that a simple re-registration can be carried out at any préfecture, or, indeed, at any garage authorised to deal with cartes grises. However, for more complex transactions you have to either go in person to your own préfecture, or send the full documentation by post.

'More complex' is defined in this case as: "véhicules importés, véhicules transformés ou de petites séries,

changements d'état civil ou matrimonial "mariages, divorces,

successions", changements de domicile". So that seems pretty clear that the OP can only get a new carte grise from his/her home préfecture.

The 'full documentation' is defined here (and it appears to cover the OP's situation). It also backs up what SD has said - though in my own experience, doing everything correctly and furnishing the full documentation does not preclude an awkward individual official's own prejudices or errors - as I know well from the hassles of undergoing a tax investigation in France.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Will"]doing everything correctly and furnishing the full documentation does not preclude an awkward individual official's own prejudices or errors - as I know well from the hassles of undergoing a tax investigation in France.[/quote]Some may recall a situation last year with my tax return where the Impots insisted that, because my UK salary was not derived from a government sector job, it was a private income and therefore, despite the fact that I had paid PAYE in UK, was wholly liable to taxation in France and that I would have to pay again and claim back my PAYE from HMRC [blink]

This was from their 'English' lady who's speciality was dealing with English clients [8-)]

 

[Will]

And of course the awkward, jobsworth, xenophobic official is not a concept unique to France (though it certainly has its fair share) [;-)]