Clocking of cars, and checking history?

[joidevie]

Hello all..

In the next months we're looking at upgrading our car, so looking at all the options in terms of buying in France vs UK, Spain etc..

How common is 'clocking' in France, and are there DVLA type records and checks you can make? Obviously bills help, but are there other checks you can easily make?

Thanks very much for any good advice..

[EuroTrash]

Is it possible to 'clock' a car with digital instrumentation???

Once you have identified a car you are seriously considering buying, you can (and should) get a certificat de non gage to ensure that there are no outstanding debts lodged against the car, e.g. by the tax office.

You also have a certain amount of protection from the vice cache legislation, if you can prove that the previous owner knew of the existence of a fault that would not have been obvious to anyone who inspected the car, and he failed to disclose it to you.

[NickP]

Yes; there used to be adverts on a famous auction site offering the service, I believe they are no longer there, but I'm sure any twelve year old in Peckham or Brixton would be able to adjust a digital "instrument". So you can bet the French equivalent is around.

[John Brown]

Its common practice both here and in the UK to note mileage on invoices from garages when services and repairs are done so if you are considering buying a car ask to see all the past invoices and see if the mileages noted make sense as the vehicle got older.

The only way I know of to "clock" a modern car is to change the whole of the speedo head / display with one from a scrap car but that involves a lot of work / expertise and you would need to find an exact match of make / model / year.

Best of luck

John

[AnOther]

Reminds me of a story I heard about a BMW owner who bought a complete instrument cluster to give his car a 'haircut' and spent many hours fitting it only to find when he turned the ignition on that the odometer displayed the same mileage as before as it was stored in the ECU !

I don't know if it's true or not but you so want it to be don't you [:D]

[dave21478]

A lot depends on brand and age of the car - some can be clocked with a laptop and a commonly available OBDII - USB lead and the right software which can be found online - others are harder. For example some modern BMWs including iirc the mini store the mileage data in the chip in the key as well as the ECU and instruments, so taking the key to a service centre, they can slot it into their reader and pull up the mileage and service history of the car (If it has been serviced at BMW agents)

On my 2001 Landrover, the instrument cluster has been changed in the past for a second hand one, and when it was plugged into a diagnostic computer at a landrover garage, it showed a mileage that was not whats on the display - I assume the ecu stores mileage data in this case.

In Uk, if you have an MOT certificate number or the V5 serial number, you can check a cars MOT history online, which will show the mileage that was recorder each year since MOTs were computerised....maybe 10 years now? As far as I know, nothing like this is possible in France.

[sid]

I'm not sure that I understand what's different here in France... the kilométrage is shown on my CT.

[nomoss]

[quote user="sid"]I'm not sure that I understand what's different here in France... the kilométrage is shown on my CT.[/quote]

I also thought of that, but then wondered if people here keep their old CT certificates - I don't think there is a legal obligation to do so, or whether the results are stored centrally for future access.

I doubt the latter, as cars' registration numbers changed whenever owners changed or moved until last year, so previous records would be difficult to trace.

Anyway, if someone had clocked a car, the last thing they would do would be to keep documentation showing they had done it.

[sid]

The VIN is the unique reference and the CT station appears to have previous records.

Since the first CT is not done until the car is 4 years old, and thereafter they're only done every two years, it's not a very reliable record, but once recorded it does give some indication as to whether the car is doing average mileage (or even kilometrage).

[AnOther]

Whether it's a matter of record on the system or not it's perfectly possible to rack up say 100,000 km or more in 2 years

but then have 90% of it shaved off just prior to a new CT and a sale and as long as it's

higher than the last time then realistically who is going to question it, I'm sure there are a lot of cars which only travel a few thousand km per annum so it wouldn't necessarily seem out of the ordinary.

Potential signs of high mileage include shiny steering wheels and gear knobs and worn pedal rubbers but none of those are conclusive so in the absence of irrefutable evidence all you can really do is take stock of the seller and ask enough questions, including is the mileage correct.

There are no guarantees but vices cache does give you some limited form of protection although unless a seller voluntarily coughs up in case of a problem it's a protracted process which involves expense on your part although it may be covered under your home insurance.

The best advice I can give is to take your time and only buy when you are 100% happy to do so.

[nomoss]

[quote user="sid"]

The VIN is the unique reference and the CT station appears to have previous records.

[/quote]

sid, do you infer that there is a central record for all vehicles?

If not, what do you mean by the CT station? A particular car could have had CTs at different test stations every time it was required.

[sid]

I meant MY CT station, sorry. Something came up a couple of years ago about a previous visit which made me think that he had access to previous records of my car; I've always been to the same station and at the last visit the car had been there 3 times. I also had the impression that the recording is done centrally for the allocation of the certificate number.

Since my last post I've been trying to find out whether there is a central system as it's not clear whther the computer terminal was just on a small local network or part of a larger departemental or national scheme; the answer is that I don't know. I did find some horrendous tales of clocking and it seems that only the police have records to any the official records such as carte grises.

As far as usefullness is concerned ANO is right, the intervals are too great to give a valid picture. In my case I have all the maintenance bills each of which show the kilometrage, and places such as Norauto (for tyres) also record the VIN and kms).

When I registered my motorcycle here I bought a replacement speedo (on the origial dial the figures were in mph and kph but the metric numbers were very small); I was given the option of having the digital odometer on the new instrument set to anything I wanted! Apparently it is stored in a chip. I had it set to the equivalent of the old value. Some cars must be like this surely.  

[joidevie]

Great, thanks very much for the debate..  Seems 'same rules apply' (no surprise there..)..

My experience of buying, and particularly selling, cars in the UK has always revealed the most dubious people.. Clocked cars (easily done), shady scams etc etc..

Even now, I responded to an ad in Bon Coin for a (somewhat too nice a) 307 which ended up with emails from the seller wanting to have the car delivered to me at a Mairie or Gendarmerie of my choice by a 'friend' as he himself was away on 'sabatical' and unable to do it. Of course this involved transferring money into his bank account first (hmm..)..

This "arnaque" is currently doing the rounds according to my neighbour..

Lucky I'm not in a hurry...