Insurance if buying a Spanish reg car in the UK? And papers?

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]"Decleration de Cession d'un vehicule"

I know there has been some debate on whether I need to do this at all, but I shall just so I have done everything by the book. Just to check a couple of details if I may: If they don't want it, they'll give it back to you[:)]

Je soussigné (declare avoir cédé) - The seller (use Spanish address as per vehicle docs
a - Me (use French address)
A - Vehicle reg
E - The very long code number This is "Numero de Identificacion" on the Ficha Technica - (VIN in english)
D1 - Make (Peugeot)
D2 (Type Variante) - ???  Its blank on the Spanish Permiso ? My VW FT had Type (Tipo), with Variante below this (with blank for this)

However, the number they put in D2 bears no similarity to "Tipo" on the FT. Presumably they got it from the C of C. That's actually one reason they need a C of C - to provide details not on the foreign papers. If it's not on the FT, leave it blank.

J1 (Genre National) - ? Doesn't exist on the Permiso. Should I put VP? (Vehicule Paticulier) Yes
D3 (Denomination commercial) - 306 tdi

Fait a - Town in England (dated) Personally, I'd keep it simple and put somewhere in Sapi, but I don't think it matters.

On the lower section, this was answered before,

- The lower blue section of the certificat - nothing to fill in in the "Je certifie en outre" (modifier les indications du certificat de conformity..) & "cede pour destruction" (obviously not) .. Tick the first box, which states he hasn't modified the vehicle  Yes

But "Merci d'indiquer" ... le Kilometrage.. Is optional, but asking for the odometer reading? Yes

Many thanks again..
[/quote]

[joidevie]

Cheers..

I'm just looking at your FT and a feint scan of my one. On mine it has 'tippo' 4D8A and 'variante' either H or II (very feint).

So, what to put in D2 which is blank on the permiso? And in D3? is D3 'tippo' 4D8A  or 306tdi which it says on the premiso?

All a little confusing..

By the way, where is Sapi? [:)]

Visuel	Champ	Description
	Champ A	Numéro d'immatriculation
	Champ A.1	Numéro d'immatriculation précédent du véhicule
	Champ B	Date de la première immatriculation du véhicule
	Champ C.1	Nom, prénom et adresse dans l'Etat membre à la date de délivrance, du titulaire du certificat d'immatriculation
	Champ C.3	Nom, prénom et adresse dans l'Etat membre à la date de délivrance, de la personne physique ou morale pouvant disposer du véhicule à un titre juridique autre que celui de propriétaire.
	Champ C.4 a	Mention précisant que le titulaire du certificat d'immatriculation est le propriétaire du véhicule
	Champ C.4.1	Mention précisant le nombre de personnes titulaires du certificat d'immatriculation, dans le cas de multi-propriété
	Champ D.1	Marque du véhicule
	Champ D.2	Type, variante (si disponible), version (si disponible)
	Champ D.3	Dénomination commerciale
	Champ D.2.1	Code national d'identification du type
	Champ E	Numéro d'identification du véhicule
	Champ F.1	Masse en charge maximale techniquement admissible, sauf pour les motocycles (en kg)
	Champ F.2	Masse en charge maximale admissible en service (en kg): PTAC
	Champ F.3	Masse en charge maximale admissible de l'ensemble en service (en kg)
	Champ G	Masse du véhicule en service avec carrosserie et dispositif d'attelage en cas de véhicule tracteur de catégorie autre que M1 (en kg)
	Champ G.1	Poids à vide national
	Champ H	Période de validité, si elle n'est pas illimitée
	Champ I	Date de l'immatriculation à laquelle se réfère la carte grise
	Champ I.1	Date de l'immatriculation à laquelle se réfère la précédente carte grise
	Champ J	Catégorie du véhicule (CE)
	Champ J.1	Genre national
	Champ J.2	Carrosserie (CE)
	Champ J.3	Carrosserie (désignation nationale)
	Champ K	Numéro de réception par type
	Champ P.1	Cylindrée (en cm3)
	Champ P.2	Puissance nette maximale (en kW)
	Champ P.3	Type de carburant ou source d'énergie
	Champ P.6	Puissance administrative nationale

>

Visuel	Champ	Description
	Champ Q	Rapport puissance/masse en kW/kg (uniquement pour les motocycles)
	Champ S.1	Nombre de places assises y compris celle du conducteur
	Champ S.2	Nombre de places debout
	Champ U.1	Niveau sonore à l'arrêt en dB(A)
	Champ U.2	Vitesse du moteur (en min-1)
	Champ V.7	CO2 (en gr/Km)
	Champ V.9	Classe environnementale de réception CE
	Champ X.1	Date du prochain contrôle technique à la date de délivrance de la carte grise
	Champ Y.1	Montant de la taxe proportionnelle régionale en Euro
	Champ Y.2	Montant de la taxe additionnelle parafiscale en Euro
	Champ Y.3	Montant de la taxe additionnelle CO2 ou montant de l'écotaxe en euros
	Champ Y.4	Montant de la taxe pour gestion du certificat d'immatriculation en euros
	Champ Y.5	Montant de la redevance pour acheminement du certificat d'immatriculation en euros
	Champ Y.6	Montant total de la taxe à acquitter en Euro
	Champ Z.1	Mentions spécifiques
	Champ Z.2
	Champ Z.3
	Champ Z.4

"Old

Tableau de correspondance

RUBRIQUES ANCIENNES	RUBRIQUES NOUVELLES
Marque	D1. Marque
Type	D2. Type, variante, version
/	D2.1. Code national d'identification du type (en cas de réception CE)
Dénomination commerciale	D3. Dénomination commerciale
Numéro d'identification ou Numéro dans la série du type	E. Numéro d'identification
/	F1. Masse en charge maximale techniquement admissible, (sauf pour les motocycles) en Kg
Poids total autorisé en charge (PTC)	F2. Masse en charge maximale admissible du véhicule en service (en Kg)
Poids total roulant autorisé (PTRA)	F3. Masse en charge maximale admissible de l'ensemble en service (en Kg)
/	G. Masse du véhicule en service avec carrosserie et dispositif d'attelage en cas de véhicule tracteur de catégorie autre que M1
Poids à vide	G1. Poids à vide national (en Kg)
/	J. Catégorie du véhicule (CE)
Genre	J1. Genre national
/	J2. Carrosserie (CE)
Carrosserie	J3. Carrosserie (nationale)
/	K. Numéro de réception par type (si disponible)
/	P1. Cylindrée (en cm3)
/	P2. Puissance nette maximale en Kw (uniquement pour les motocycles)
Energie ou source d'énergie	P3. Type de carburant ou source d'énergie
Puissance/CV ou puissance administrative	P6. Puissance administrative nationale
/	Q. Rapport puissance - masse
Places assises	S1. Nombre de places assises y compris le conducteur
/	S2. Nombre de places debout (le cas échéant)
Niveau sonore (dBa) ou BR	U1. Niveau sonore à l'arrêt (en dBa)
Régime moteur (tr/min)	U2. Vitesse du moteur (en min-1)
/	V7. CO2(en g/km)
/	V9. Indication de la classe environnementale de réception CE. mention de la version applicable en vertu de la directive 70/220/CEE ou de la directive 88/77/CEE
Mentions spécifiques (éventuellement)	Z1 à Z4. mentions spécifiques (éventuellement)

Liste des nouvelles données de la carte grise européenne:

• C.4 a) Mention précisant que le titulaire du certificat d'immatriculation est le propriétaire du véhicule
• C.4.1 Mention précisant le nombre de personnes
• D.2 Type, variante, version
• D.3 Dénomination commerciale
• F.1 Masse en charge maximale techniquement admissible, (sauf pour les motocycles)
• G. Masse du véhicule en service avec carrosserie et dispositif d'attelage en cas de véhicule tracteur de catégorie autre que M1
• J. Catégorie du véhicule (CE)
• K. Numéro de réception par type
• P.2 Puissance nette maximale en Kw (uniquement pour les motocycles)
• Q. Rapport puissance - masse
• S.2 Nombre de places debout
• V.7 CO2
• V.9 Indication de la classe environnementale de réception CE

[nomoss]

You're a big lad. I'm sure you can sort it out by now[:D]

 

 

[John Doe]

Hello,

I have just joined the forum and all due to this great thread which I have read a couple of times. I am also in the same boat - about to buy a Spanish car (from an owner in the UK) which is still registered in Spain with Spanish plates etc. I am going to take the car straight to France and re register it there (Brittany) - I have residency there.

So, I know I ought to be able to glean everything I need to do from such a thorough thread but I just want to make sure that from a buyers point of view I've got it straight - I hope you'll humour me?!

1, Download a Certificate de Cession and get the seller to complete it - addresses etc as on his Spanish documents. (fill in as per your previous suggestions)

2, Create an invoice/reciept in English, signed/dated by each party.

3, Get the Ficha Technica from the owner(similar to Carte Gris)and Permis de Circulacion (basic car information and owners details)

- Would the car normally come with a certificado de conformidad? or will I just need to get a certificate of conformity from France?

and the Spanish side of things must be taken care of by the seller.

Once in France with the car:

Get Certificate of Conformity, Control Technique (if ness).

Visit  my local prefecture with:

Certificate of Conformity, Control Technique, Certificate de Cession, Ficha Technica, Permis de Circulacion, a French utility bill (in my name) and my passport. And then with any luck secure a Carte Gris?!

Many thanks for your help!

[AnOther]

You've forgotten the very first step, visit your local Hotel des Impots for a 'quittus fiscale' which says that any tax due has been paid - it's free and there won't be any to pay so don't worry, it's just another part of the game.

Also personally I wouldn't bother with a Certificate de cession, it's only applicable to cars already French registered and changing hands and means absolutely nothing in terms of an imported car, your purchase receipt will be adequate to prove ownership.

Bonne chance

[nomoss]

I suggested completing a French Certificate de Cession simply because it is the French equivalent of a Bill of Sale, and is understandable to anyone in France regardless of what number plates happen to be on the car.

It was suggested as a precaution in case one runs into an official who will not accept a private receipt, maybe hand written, from the seller, or who wants a receipt translated into French.

It costs absolutely nothing to download and print the form and have the seller complete it.

It is specifically listed as one of the documents required for a vehicle coming from another EU country, which implies that it is not only for French registered cars, as the writer above keeps insisting, apparently on the basis that he has not been asked for it in one particular Prefecture.

The list is here: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F19222.xhtml

The list also states that the C of C includes a Bill of sale (la déclaration de cession du véhicule rempli, qui comprend un certificat de vente ) and suggests that a foreign document would have to be translated into French (click on the "certificat de vente" link)

The person in the tax office which supplied the Quittus Fiscal has twice told me it is not necessary for a vehicle already registered in the EU, but I have still supplied it, and been asked for it, for all the cars I have registered here.[:)]

 

[AnOther]

I can see what it says but having now imported and registered 5 vehicles I have never been asked for it and my invoice or hand written receipt has always  proved sufficient without further comment.

Do it if you want, I'm just saying that personally I wouldn't bother.

[nomoss]

When dealing with the bureaucracy here (or anywhere else) I never regard what happened the previous time as being any guarantee of what will happen the next time [:D]

 

 

 

[AnOther]

Quite and as they say 'past performance is no guarantee for the future' [;-)]

[John Doe]

Many thanks for all your help! and while I'm here - just on the off chance - might you know the best route to go down if you have bought a car from the uk (now registered in the uk but exported from France a year after manufacture) which turns out to be still registered to the original owner in France?! The original owner was British and gave the car to his daughter in the UK a year after buying it - she then sold it to someone else in the UK and then I bought it off her and then found out it had never been de registered in France. The original owner died some years ago.

I thought perhaps it would be worth filling in the cert de cession from when the car was given to his daughter? She could sign for herself and as him and use the original dates maybe? would that be enough for the prefecture to de register it from France? or is there an simpler way? I was also a bit concerned about tax issues as the car was transferred to his daughter only a year after purchase from new? - does tax apply if it was a gift?

A bit of a convoluted story and a testing one! I could see it getting heavily bogged down in paper work if the prefecture was told the original (and current, according to their records) owner is dead.

Any suggestions would be warmly welcomed!

Cheers!

[AnOther]

The act of UK registration itself have 'de-registered' it in French so it's simply not possible for it to be still be registered to it's previous owner.

The final part of UK registration would have been DVLA informing the French of the change and returning the carte grise to them if requested, this is EU law and is supposed to take place within 2 months of the event.

As long as you have the V5 or a Certificate of Permanent Export you should have no problems in bringing it back to France and registering it again here, just treat it as you would any other UK import. How the current UK registered keeper owner came by it is completely irrelevant and there will be no taxes to pay.

If you have a copy of the original French carte grise then it has no particular significance or value although it's possible that some CT stations and/or prefectures might be persuaded to accept it in place of a Certificate of Conformity but don't bank on it.

Rather stupidly, even though the car started it's life in France, you will almost certainly be asked for a Certificate of Conformity. I'm going through a very similar process with a 2CV right now but have hit a temporary stumbing block because the certificate of permanent export DVLA issued for it was missing the last two digits from the VIN number so am having to have it corrected and reissued.

Happy days !

[John Doe]

Many thanks for the response - unfortunately it simply is possible as I have already tried to register the car at the local prefecture. All documents were in order but the guy dealing with case informed us he was unable to issue the carte gris as the car was still registered in France to the original owner. I shall persue the Cert de Cession with the original owners daughter and see how I go - currently I cant see any other way to proceed that wont incur a potential French paper work nightmare.

With regards to the Spanish car and the certificate of conformity - does anyone have any recommendations where to get one cheap and quick? might one from the UK surffice? (depending on the prefecture and their levels of pedanticism) or do I need to go to Renault in France?

Many thanks again!

[AnOther]

Do you have the V5 for the car ?

That is the de facto controlling registration document for the car and it's issue instantly and automatically revoked any previous registration therefore it is not possible for it to be registered in two places at the same time. Just as with an exchange driving licence where the issuing of it automatically revokes any previous ones.

As I said earlier registration in UK should have resulted in DVLA informing the French and it sounds as if that either wasn't done or was but the French failed to properly record it.

Another line of attack would be to print off the relevant EU directive and present that to the prefecture to help them to understand what the vehicle having a V5 means.

This is the English version but there will be a French one out there somewhere, see section 17 on:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:52007SC0169:EN:NOT

also see here, Article 5.2:

Harmonised Registration Document - EUR-Lex

[nomoss]

John Doe. How does the man in the Prefecture know the car was previously registered in France?

Did you show him the old Carte Grise?

It is strange that you even have the old CG, as it should have been handed over when the car was registered in the UK.

Perhaps the original owner obtained a duplicate - I can think of a couple of reasons for this, but as the owner is deceased you'll probably never know, and it's probaly irrelevant now.

Another possibility is that the car is "dodgy" - have you checked its provenance via one of the outfits that do this in UK?

Edit: The car could also be "dodgy" in France. Unless you know and are confident in the person who sold it to you, you might want to check this.

You could also ask how it comes to have two registration documents.

You can check its UK registration here https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla

If the reason for the refusal was because you produced the old Carte Grise I suggest trying again, at another Prefecture, producing only the UK registration (V5C)

I suggest getting your CoC for the Renault from France. You will find details on how to do this here http://www.renault.fr/contact/contact-direct/attestation-src.jsp

[AnOther]

[quote user="nomoss"]How does the man in the Prefecture know the car was previously registered in France?[/quote]How about the VIN number when it's entered into the computer, that is it's permanent identity and since it has been previously registered in France under that I think it very likely that that information would come up.

I agree it's probably best to say nothing about the vehicles history but I'm not sure it's as easy as just staying stum.

[nomoss]

It did, of course, occur to me that the car could have been identified by entering its VIN into a computer, but I considered that unlikely, as I have not noticed such checks being carried out at the Prefecture.

That is why I asked John Doe the question, also asking if he had produced the Carte Grise.

The latter seems to me a more likely reason to check for a previous French registration.

[John Doe]

Hi

Many thanks for your help again. The guy in the prefecture wasn't able to register the car as he told us it was already registered in France With the original owner.

We don't have the carte Gris - we used the uk v5 document.

When I bought the car I found the cert de cession forms and an attestation form - all still blank. So I'm guessing this must have a large part to play in the confusion!

I have spoken with the original owners daughter and she is happy to help in any way. They also have the original french plates which they could send with the cert de cession if we thought it would help - they have looked for the carte grise but cannot find it.

The v5 states in special notes that it was registered overseas.

I have spoken to the dvla and they say all they can do is issue Another v5.

The previous owners live very close and I trust there's nothing dodgy going on. I've just got to get this next bit right first time!

Thank you again for everyone's advice

[AnOther]

I can only reiterate that the fact you have a V5 for the vehicle means that it's issue cancelled and replaced the previous French carte grise so it is the vehicles legal and proper registration document and what went before it should be irrelevant.

Your real problem then seems to be that your prefecture do not seem to understand that and even if there is an error on their computer that itself should not be grounds for refusing to allow you to register it in your name.

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]The act of UK registration itself have 'de-registered' it in French so it's simply not possible for it to be still be registered to it's previous owner.

The final part of UK registration would have been DVLA informing the French of the change and returning the carte grise to them if requested, this is EU law and is supposed to take place within 2 months of the event.

As long as you have the V5 or a Certificate of Permanent Export you should have no problems in bringing it back to France and registering it again here, just treat it as you would any other UK import. How the current UK registered keeper owner came by it is completely irrelevant and there will be no taxes to pay..........

[/quote]

Just goes to show that you can't rely on EU procedures working properly. Surprise, surprise [:D]

[PaddyW]

Can I add another twist to this saga. I am in a similar position but I have a French registered car and I want to take it to Spain. The same principles about a UK resident not being able to drive a foreign registered vehicle in the UK apply to me. I am having difficulty insuring it for all the reasons already quoted. I therefore have a car which I cannot legally drive.

I enquired about registering it in the UK and then being able to insure it. I could then drive it and use it in Spain for 90 days under my UK insurance.

The Uk Government website says that there are certain requirements which must be met before registration must be complete.

We require:

- Original European Certificate of Conformity (with 51 or 52 numbered items)

- Garage evidence that the vehicle meets the United Kingdom national requirements (UK

specification headlights, dual marked speedometer, suitable rear fog-light(s))

- This completed application form

- £100 payment

My French car would not meet the left-dipping headlights criteria plus the speedometer is not dual marked. I assume that most non UK cars would be in the same predicament. I cannot see how I could register the car in the UK because of these two problems.

Has anyone encountered these problems in the past and come up with a solution?

Grateful for any advice or clarification.

PaddyW

[nomoss]

The best way to deal with this is to find a gestor in the area where you live/intend to stay in Spain who specialises in dealing with car registration and importation. Preferably get some quotes/prices from different gestors for doing the importation.

I lived in Spain for many years and would not dream of doing this myself. The last vehicle I had imported into Spain was a German registered VW camper. This was done by the garage who were selling the vehicle. The total cost to me was about 1200€, but the garage probably added a bit onto the gestors's charges for their input.

 

 

[nomoss]

I should add that at the time I imported the VW into Spain (2000), there was a "car tax" to pay, a significan percentage of the vehicle's value, which accounted for a fairly large part of the cost (the VW's value at the time was about 12,000€)

If your spanish is good you might be able to do the importation yourself, provided you are willing to queue for long periods in "Trafico" in the capital city of the province you are in, and also in whatever offices you have to pay various taxes. You should be able to get the necessary ITV (similar to MOT test) certificate from any ITV station by yourself. They were still testing foreign plated cars with no problems up to about 4 years ago.

You might get more up-to-date information on this forum: http://www.englishspanishlink.com/community-forum/  (you don't have to join to read, scroll down)

Sorry, the link above doesn't have any information on cars, although I found good information on residence permits there.

This link would be a lot more useful http://www.michaelbriant.com/car_import.htm