Insurance if buying a Spanish reg car in the UK? And papers?

[joidevie]

Just one last thought before doing the deal - the Spanish MOT doesn't need to be for 6months + or anything? I think I remember you need a new French one before the import, which can be done even whilst on Spanish plates?

Thanks.

[nomoss]

AnOther said : [quote user="nomoss"]Are you saying you registered it in France with someone else's name on the Belgian documents, with no proof you had bought it?[/quote] If you want to put it like that then yes.

I bought it from a dealer but all the paperwork was still in the previous Belgian owners name and it was still on Belgian plates. I got an invoice with it on crudely headed notepaper, nothing which you or I couldn't have knocked up in 5 minuets on our own PC's, but it was accepted at the Impots for my quittus fiscale without comment.

So you did have a bill of sale, however crude, to establish you owned it. I suggested a C de C, the normal format for a Bill of Sale in France (which is all it is), as more likely to be accepted. Not all Prefectures nor Customs offices may be so straightforward as yours.

Similarly with the MGB I bought last year, that came with an invoice which I could have knocked up in 5 minutes too but again it didn't raise an eyebrow.

Once again, you had a (maybe crude) bill of sale.

Remember ownership is not really Impots concern and in any case, because of the legal obligations for informing the previous registration authority of a change in country of registration, and returning surrendered registration documents if requested, a stolen car will quickly be revealed and of course traced.

I know that, but what I know is not relevant. I have repeatedly found that logic is not necessarily applicable to the behaviour of functionaries in any country. 

If it is not related to a vehicle already registered in France I don't understand what you think a manufactured and incomplete certificate de cession can possibly prove ?

I don't know what you mean by "manufactured". Those I use are completed on line and printed, or printed and completed by hand. Is there another sort?

Why do you also say "incomplete". Every part of it is just as applicable to a Spanish car as it is to a French one, so can be fully completed

As I said, it is simply a Bill of Sale, and in a format they are used to

I meant 'unnecessary and spurious papers BTW, clearly whatever passes for a registration document in Spain has to be produced. You mention Ficha Technica and Permiso de Circulacion but assuming the Ficha Technica is the equivalent of a CT then like a UK MOT that has no place or function whatsoever in the registration process.

Wrong again, I'm afraid. 

As I stated in my very first post on this topic, the Ficha Technica (a bit like the french Carte Grise) has all the vehicle's details on it, and a space for records of ITV (= CT/MOT test) inspections, but does not have the owners details. It stays with the vehicle permanently (they staple on additional pages for ITVs as required).

The document for the ITV is a printout similar to that for a french CT - not required for registration in France.

The Permiso has only the car's basic information and the owner's details.

Both the Ficha Technica and the Permiso are required for registering a spanish car here, as I know to my cost.

Well, they were both required in Carcassonne. I didn't try anywhere else. Just drove to Spain and got a duplicate for the missing Permiso.

 

 

[AnOther]

The CT will have to be done whilst on Spanish plates because you need it for the subsequent registration and you will need a French CT which is less than 6 months old at that time. Almost every CT station nowadays will demand a certificate of conformity before carrying out a CT on a foreign registered vehicle.

Since you are not French resident you will have up to 6 months to register it in France. Technically it's supposed to be road legal in it's home country during that period but the thousands of Brits tooling around in UK regged cars with no tax or MOT are a visible testament to how assiduously that particular rule is observed or enforced !

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]Just one last thought before doing the deal - the Spanish MOT doesn't need to be for 6months + or anything? I think I remember you need a new French one before the import, which can be done even whilst on Spanish plates?

Thanks.
[/quote]

The spanish ITV (=MOT) has no relevance to importing the car into France.

Yes, you need a french CT to register it here, and as it's on ES plates you need to produce a C of C before they will test it.

You may want to see the last spanish ITV for your own satisfaction. It is rather more thorough than French CTs, very standardised, and done in government stations on mostly automated equipment, so quite difficult to fake.

[nomoss]

Incidentally, I don't know about other areas, but both our local CT centre and the Prefecture in Carcassonne have specimen copies of all, or most, of the registration documents from all EU countries that they should accept.

I found this out when I eventually produced a Certificate from Spain to the effect that the Permiso for one of our cars had been withdrawn (because it didn't have a valid ITV when we changed our address).

They even had a specimen copy of that!

As my mother used to say "They're not so daft as they're cabbage-looking!"

[joidevie]

Is the "Ficha Tecnica" the same as the Certificat de conformité?? Just hoping I've got everything 100% ready for the prefecture..

I'm just looking at the pictures the seller has sent me of his papers, and one is obvious and labelled "Permiso de Circulacion" with his name on it, and the other is a stamped/serial numbered certificate with Peugeot / Talbot logo and the chassis numbers, technical details, registration number etc. And "Vehiculo Procedente de la CEE" in the middle. It's light green with a feint logo shadowed in the background..?

On another note - back to the French insurance and making my way to the ferry terminal.. I was looking up options on the Eurotunnel and it's very cheap. I just got a little concerned when I read in the 'about your journey' section, there is mention of 'passport, vehicle and official documentation will be checked'.. Wonder if I might stick to the ferry? [I]

[nomoss]

This forum is bloody annoying.

I just replied at length to your last post, but then, presumably whilst you were changing it and adding to it, when I clicked on "POST"  I got a blank white display.

I went back to the main Forum page, then to the topic, but both your post and my reply then failed appear.

I have just returned to the Forum and you have a different post here.

I will try to reply, but am losing patience. I will write my reply in Word, as I often have to do on this Forum, the only one where I have this problem, and copy and paste it. I am now copying this post to Word as a precaution.

[nomoss]

Here is your lost post from my email notification, and my reply.

 

Thanks again.

Now, I don't know if the car I'm buying (collecting it on Saturday) has a separate CC. I'm hoping it does, but was otherwise going to rely on the Prefecture (in Carcassonne as it happens) to 'do it for me' for the ?67 or so if needed. I remember years ago when I first took my Golf to France, the Prefecture did the CC for me? So how would I have had it CT'd then?

 

Have you read the section on importing UK cars in the “Driving in France” section?

 

Prefectures don’t issue Cs of C. I think DRIRE only issue them if the manufacturer can’t or won’t. The requirement for a C of C before a CT is new, only last year or so.

On another note - re. going to the ferry terminal etc. with the French car insurance, I'm just looking at Eurotunnel prices (very cheap the the moment) but in the 'about your journey' section there is talk of 'passport, vehicle and official documentation inspection'.. Should I stick the the ferry just in case 

 

Your and vehicle’s documents are checked whatever method you use to leave UK.

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]Is the "Ficha Tecnica" the same as the Certificat de conformité?? Just hoping I've got everything 100% ready for the prefecture.[/quote]

No. The FT is a spanish registration document for the vehicle. It looks like this

 

[IMG]http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/nomoss/Posted%20on%20Forums/FichaTecnica0001_zpsbea5cdc8.jpg[/IMG]

EDIT  The Certificate of Conformity is a statement by the manufacturer or official commercial importer of the vehicle's characteristics and that it conforms to the relevant regulations at the time it is manufactured. What you get is a copy of the original certificate when that model was first produced .

[quote user="joidevie"] I'm just looking at the pictures the seller has sent me of his papers, and one is obvious and labelled "Permiso de Circulacion" with his name on it, and the other is a stamped/serial numbered certificate with Peugeot / Talbot logo and the chassis numbers, technical details, registration number etc. And "Vehiculo Procedente de la CEE" in the middle. It's light green with a feint logo shadowed in the background..? [/quote]

I'm not sure from your description. If it is a C of C it will say so.

[quote user="joidevie"] On another note - back to the French insurance and making my way to the ferry terminal.. I was looking up options on the Eurotunnel and it's very cheap. I just got a little concerned when I read in the 'about your journey' section, there is mention of 'passport, vehicle and official documentation will be checked'.. Wonder if I might stick to the ferry? [I]

Already answered

[/quote]

[joidevie]

I'm sorry for that - no bad intentions meant, I just changed my post once I read it..

Your help has been incredibly useful.

[nomoss]

No problem. It's not your fault, I think it's a glitch on this Forum's software.

This is a Permiso de Circulation.

[IMG]http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/nomoss/Posted%20on%20Forums/AlfaPermisoCircBLANK_zpsd8a038b3.jpg[/IMG]

[joidevie]

He seems to have shown me the Green 'Ficha" and the 'Permiso'.

It's a 1995 reg car, so I'm not holding out much hope for there being a CC then. It was all a little different 7 years ago when the Prefecture at Carcassonne arranged the CC internally, and also let me 'off' not having a 'facture' for the car (my mother gave it to me, which was true..). And getting the CT was also no problem without the CC..

So, a slight spanner in the works. More hoops than I expected as I'm only going over for 10 days, and now I'm likely to have to apply for a CC once there, wait, then CT the car, and only then reg the car..  [8-)]

I don't then expect to return for at least another month - which puts a bit of a awkward situation on registering the car within one month (although I am not a French resident).. And then I have a receipt for the car older than one month, although that shouldn't affect things as the car could have been bought ages ago. I guess I could just keep the car in the garage, but then maybe the insurance company won't be very happy if it's not been re-registered withing the one month period.. All far too complicated!

I wonder if the DRIRE office in Carcassonne do an 'express' turnaround..

[nomoss]

It occurred to me that the format of the Permiso and/or the Ficha Technica may have changed since the ones I showed here were issued.

I do know that the local CT centre chap showed me the photocopies of spanish papers which he had, and he had copies of both the versions I had.

As AnOther suggested, the FT is actually supplied by the inspection authority, and logically perhaps should not be required for registration here, but it is the only document with all the vehicles details on it (the other side of the Pemiso is blank), and I assure you that I was specifically asked for it, rightly or wrongly, for both spanish vehicles I registered here.

If the documents you have don't look like the copies I posted I can check what info' the local CT station (just up the road), has. I know them fairly well.

 

[nomoss]

The staff in the Prefecture in C'sonne seem more helpful and patient at every visit, maybe because the awkward old sods have died off[:D]

Or maybe they feel sorry for an old half crippled s*d like me[:(]

If you contact Peugeot Talbot and send them some dosh and VIN number of the car they should send you a C of C. Depending on how long they estimate to produce it, you could ask them to send it to your french address.

Edit: Odd, it censors sod, but not the plural sods

[joidevie]

Thanks for the offer.. I suppose my main concern now is of the damn CC which, if I get from DRIRE, will probably not be in my hand in time to complete the registration before I have to leave..

Have you ever heard of anyone using these guys (or similar) http://www.certifauto.com/

They seem to offer a CC for €170 delivered in 9 days.. Which would keep me in the one month period..

Or I could just extend my visit, but I have a lot on my plate here at the moment..

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]Thanks for the offer.. I suppose my main concern now is of the damn CC which, if I get from DRIRE, will probably not be in my hand in time to complete the registration before I have to leave..

Have you ever heard of anyone using these guys (or similar) http://www.certifauto.com/

They seem to offer a CC for €170 delivered in 9 days.. Which would keep me in the one month period..

Or I could just extend my visit, but I have a lot on my plate here at the moment..
[/quote]

Your link brought up a virus warning from my AV

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]Thanks for the offer.. I suppose my main concern now is of the damn CC which, if I get from DRIRE, will probably not be in my hand in time to complete the registration before I have to leave..

Have you ever heard of anyone using these guys (or similar) http://www.certifauto.com/

They seem to offer a CC for €170 delivered in 9 days.. Which would keep me in the one month period..

Or I could just extend my visit, but I have a lot on my plate here at the moment..
[/quote]

I have only ever got my CCs from the appropriate french importer. I don't trust anyone else.

DREAL don't supply them unless manufacturer is unable to do so. See mauve exclamation mark and "Attention" near the botton of this page, which lists all the carp you need to register your car here.

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F19222.xhtml 

Edit: If you contact Peugeot Talbot and send them some dosh I'm sure they can post a CC anywhere you wish. I paid less than the 170€ you quoted.

 

 

[joidevie]

There's some good very info here and the writer mentions the DRIRE office in Perpignan who deal with the CCs for Languedoc.. I wonder if they turn things around on site if you visit..

A call..

[joidevie]

[quote user="nomoss"]According to EU procedures, the documents will be kept by your Prefecture, who will return them to Spain, where they will find their way to the Provincial Traffic Department (Trafico) where the vehicle is registered, the vehicle will be removed from their records, and the Local Authority (Town Hall - Ajuntamiento) where Road Tax is paid will also be informed..

Unless things have drastically changed in the 3 or 4 years since I registered my spanish cars here, this can take a considerable time.

Besides Trafico, Spanish vehicles are also registered with the owner's Ajuntamiento, who will continue to bill for Road Tax until they are informed by the Trafico that the vehicle has changed hands, adding fines and interest each time it is not paid, and the current owner will continue to be liable for this.

I was billed for Road Tax (paid by DD by my bank) almost a year after I imported my first car into France, even though I had informed Trafico in person that I was exporting it, and they had stamped the documents.

It was easily sorted out by a visit to my Ajuntamiento, but I couldn't get the money back! I made sure I told them immediately I exported the second car.

None of this will affect you as the buyer of the car, but the seller is likely to accumulate a growing debt in Spain. If he still has assets there they will eventiually seized to cover the debt. This is done in a strict order, starting with liquid assets in bank accounts, up to seizure of any property he still owns in Spain.

If he has no assets in Spain he will have no problem unless the debt gets really big, when he might be sought out on a visit there, or even pursued in UK.

[/quote]

Just a last minute detail..  I don't believe the owner has any 'debts' on the car, but when it comes to road tax, once I hand in the "Permiso" and "Ficha Technica"to the Prefecture, then officially road tax is no longer 'liable' in Spain (even if the docs take months to arrive back in Spain)? So effectively a stop on this continuing. And none of this should concern me at all? If it is currently taxed, is it safe to assume it is all up to date and paid up until then?

"He should be aware that once he no longer has the documents he won't be

able to declare the car exported from Spain, but this should eventually

sort itself out when the documents are sent from UK. If he doesn't plan

to return there he may not care about this probably long delay. He

wouldn't be the first person to do so."

Is there anything he should/could do to ensure tax demands are 'stopped' even if he no longer has the original papers, only copies?

Many thanks..

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]

Just a last minute detail..  I don't believe the owner has any 'debts' on the car, but when it comes to road tax, once I hand in the "Permiso" and "Ficha Technica"to the Prefecture, then officially road tax is no longer 'liable' in Spain (even if the docs take months to arrive back in Spain)? So effectively a stop on this continuing. And none of this should concern me at all? If it is currently taxed, is it safe to assume it is all up to date and paid up until then?

Road Tax is due on 1 Jan each year and is paid to the town in which the owner lives. It will cease to become due whenever the Town Hall where he lived is informed that the car is no longer there. This should eventually happen as a result of your handing in the cars documents in France. It should not be your concern.

Incidentally the amount is around 60€ p.a., depends on the Town. Proof of payment is a receipt for it from a bank.

"He should be aware that once he no longer has the documents he won't be able to eclare the car exported from Spain, but this should eventually sort itself out when the documents are sent from UK. If he doesn't plan to return there he may not care about this probably long delay. He wouldn't be the first person to do so."

Is there anything he should/could do to ensure tax demands are 'stopped' even if he no longer has the original papers, only copies?

I answered this in my first post. He, or his Gestor has to go to Trafico in the Capital of the Province where the car is registered, queue for an hour or two, complete a form, pay 2 or 3 Euros fee, and he will get the papaers back, stamped "Exported" in about half a minute.

This still has to be done in person. I just found that Trafico (Dirección General de Trafico) has a comprehensive website, but you can only download the form to cancel (Baja) the registration. It says you, or your Gestor must then fill out the form take it to a traffic office (Jefatura de Trafico)

Website page for Bajas is here: http://www.dgt.es/portal/es/oficina_virtual/vehiculos/bajas/

Instructions for exportation - near bottom of page:

b) Por traslado del vehículo a otro país (exportación)

Se trata del supuesto en el que el titular de un vehículo ha decidido su traslado al extranjero, causando por tanto baja en el Registro español de vehículos. La baja se realiza en las Jefaturas de Tráfico (o a través de un Gestor Administrativo). Para ello deberás aportar:

   - Solicitud, debidamente rellenada     Request form

   - Documentación del vehículo (permiso de circulación y tarjeta de inspección técnica)  Documents

   - Tasa de baja  Payment

   - Documentación fiscal correspondiente I don't recall this, I'd have to ask my Gestor. Could be receipt for current road tax, proof of payment of any fines or even income tax.

That's why there are Gestors in Spain - to assist with legal formalities etc. without having to ask on Forums[:D]  

 

Pincha aqui para descargarte la solicitud de baja del vehículo  (Click here to download request form)

 

Por traslado a otro país   ditto, for transfer to another country

 

Anexo baja por traslado  annexe for transfer

 

But this is all his responsibility. He can do it all by mail via his Gestor. He'll have to ask them if copies of the papers are OK.

[/quote]

[nomoss]

Note:

Don't assume that vehicle tax and ownership procedures in Spain bear any resemblance to those on UK or in France!

They don't stick bits of paper etc on the windscreens in Spain. Annual car tax is a local tax only, like rates; you wouldn't worry about these if you bought a house. I kept a bank receipt for it in our cars, but I don't think the police care much about it, or that anyone would ask for it on your way to France.

A house owner stops being charged for rates when his town hall is informed that the house has been sold. Via official channels this takes at least as long as it does in France[:D]

Similarly he stops being charged car tax when they are informed the car has gone somewhere else. Same as if he moved to another town.

In both cases, it's a good idea to go to the Town Hall in person with proof of sale for the house or car rather than wait for it to get there by official channels. You get charged until they are informed, and they don't do refunds[:D]

[joidevie]

Yet again, thanks you so much for your very well informed input  [;-)]

[nomoss]

In the last para. of my previous post I said "You get charged until they are informed,"

I meant, of course, in this case, "He gets charged ....."

 

 

[AnOther]

According to EU regulations when a vehicle is registered in another state the authorities in that state are required to notify the authorities in previous state of the event within 2 months and return the registration document if requested.

Like many things though how much the rules and reality actually have in common with each other is anybody's guess !

[joidevie]

"Decleration de Cession d'un vehicule"

I know there has been some debate on whether I need to do this at all, but I shall just so I have done everything by the book. Just to check a couple of details if I may:

Je soussigné (declare avoir cédé) - The seller (use Spanish address as per vehicle docs

a - Me (use French address)

A - Vehicle reg

E - The very long code number

D1 - Make (Peugeot)

D2 (Type Variante) - ???  Its blank on the Spanish Permiso ?

J1 (Genre National) - ? Doesn't exist on the Permiso. Should I put VP? (Vehicule Paticulier)

D3 (Denomination commercial) - 306 tdi

Fait a - Town in England (dated)

On the lower section, this was answered before,

- The lower blue section of the certificat - nothing to fill in in the

"Je certifie en outre" (modifier les indications du certificat de

conformity..) & "cede pour destruction" (obviously not) .. Tick the first box, which states he hasn't modified the vehicle

But "Merci d'indiquer" ... le Kilometrage.. Is optional, but asking for the odometer reading?

Many thanks again..