Insurance if buying a Spanish reg car in the UK? And papers?

[joidevie]

Hi..

I hope someone might be able to help as my AXA branch in France is closed over the weekend.

I'm considering buying a Spanish registered car here in the UK to eventually take over to France. Will my French insurance company cover the car whilst it's here in the UK for a few weeks before I can get it over to France? It has a current Spanish MOT.

And, what papers should I insist on getting from the vendor (Spanish specific?)? It's a private sale, and the vendor 'has come back to the UK'.. I'm wondering about cross checking the vehicle reg document address, his name etc. I don't believe there could be any outstanding finance on it..

If all is in place, can I assume it's good to keep on the road in the UK for a few weeks? Or how long is 'reasonable' before it's just too long to be credible?

If it helps, I have a UK car insurance policy which "allows me to drive 'any vehicle' with the owner's consent, 3rd party only". But I'm guessing this would not be enough as 'the vehicle' itself would not be insured, let alone it being Spanish reg etc.. My UK motor policy has absolutely no NCB, so very expensive to insure through at the moment, so I'd ideally like to put the car straight onto the French policy..

Many thanks for any details someone might be able to help with..

[dave21478]

Your "driving other cars third party" thing wont work.

Keeping it on UK plates depends where you are resident. As a UK resident you can NOT drive a foreign reg'd car in UK. At all. As a French resident you might be able to wing it.

Only your own French insurance agent will be able to tell you if they will cover it.

As for the paperwork, i asked this here a while back and if I remember rightly, got a few pages of waffle but no facts. Registering it in France is the same as ever, documented at the top of this forum section, but de-registering it on the Spanish side is what I would like to know about and nobody could answer me as to what needs done. The closest to a result was that the Spanish registered owner would have to de-register it at their local prefecture-equivelant stating it is being exported. As a non-spanish resident with no spanish NI number etc, you can not register a spanish car in your name.

I also wonder what difference it really makes if it is not de-registered in Spain....

[nomoss]

I tried to partly explain the spanish system here http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/2/2817823/ShowPost.aspx#2817823

Sorry, dave, if you didn't understand my waffle.

joiedevie, the documents you need from the owner are the "Ficha Technica" (green) which has the vehicle's technical details and inspection records (no details of owner on this), and the "Permiso de Circulacion" (white) which has the vehicle's registration number and date, and full details of the current owner.

With these two and a receipt/document from the owner to prove he has sold it to you, you can register it in France.

I think your Prefecture will probably accept a nicely printed out receipt saying he has sold it to you, plus, it would probably be a good idea to have the seller complete a french Certificat de Cession, which you can download here http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/A-votre-service/Mes-demarches/Transports/Certificat-d-immatriculation-ex-carte-grise/Acquerir-un-vehicule/Acquisition-d-un-vehicule-d-occasion-a-l-etranger#sp-chapitre-pieces-a-produire

According to EU procedures, the documents will be kept by your Prefecture, who will return them to Spain, where they will find their way to the Provincial Traffic Department (Trafico) where the vehicle is registered, the vehicle will be removed from their records, and the Local Authority (Town Hall - Ajuntamiento) where Road Tax is paid will also be informed..

Unless things have drastically changed in the 3 or 4 years since I registered my spanish cars here, this can take a considerable time.

Besides Trafico, Spanish vehicles are also registered with the owner's Ajuntamiento, who will continue to bill for Road Tax until they are informed by the Trafico that the vehicle has changed hands, adding fines and interest each time it is not paid, and the current owner will continue to be liable for this.

I was billed for Road Tax (paid by DD by my bank) almost a year after I imported my first car into France, even though I had informed Trafico in person that I was exporting it, and they had stamped the documents.

It was easily sorted out by a visit to my Ajuntamiento, but I couldn't get the money back! I made sure I told them immediately I exported the second car.

None of this will affect you as the buyer of the car, but the seller is likely to accumulate a growing debt in Spain. If he still has assets there they will eventiually seized to cover the debt. This is done in a strict order, starting with liquid assets in bank accounts, up to seizure of any property he still owns in Spain.

If he has no assets in Spain he will have no problem unless the debt gets really big, when he might be sought out on a visit there, or even pursued in UK.

[nomoss]

[quote user="dave21478"]. I also wonder what difference it really makes if it is not de-registered in Spain....[/quote]

It makes a similar difference to that if you don't de-register a car in the UK (e.g. take it to and use it in France without declaring it exported). You continue to be liable for Road Tax (or to have to declare SORN every year)

Apparently when a UK car is registered or scrapped in France the documents are returned to the UK, and this is done promptly.

The difference with Spain is that Road Tax is collected on a local basis (as it was in the UK many years ago), and there does not seem to be effective communication between the Provincial "Trafico" departments, in charge of vehicle registration, operated by the Guardia Civil, and the local Town Halls "Adjuntamientos" who collect road taxes.

[nomoss]

joidevie.

The other, and most important aspect, for you, of the seller disposing of the car correctly within the spanish system is that if this is not done, you will be liable for any outstanding fines and other debts against the car.

If the seller was resident in Spain he probably still has contact with a Gestor, who could easily sort out the car exportation and also get a statement it has no outstanding fines, both National and Municipal.

In fact, If he still has property in Spain he is legally obliged to have a contact in Spain for official purposes, and most people use a Gestor for this.

[joidevie]

[quote user="dave21478"]

Keeping it on UK plates depends where you are resident. As a UK resident you can NOT drive a foreign reg'd car in UK. At all. As a French resident you might be able to wing it.

Only your own French insurance agent will be able to tell you if they will cover it. [/quote]

Gosh, I knew this might be complicated..

So, hurdle one - As a UK resident, I will automatically be unable to buy the vehicle here in the UK and have it insured via my French insurance company and drive it at all.. So in essence, walk away? (I got a little confused, as it is on Spanish plates now, not UK plates. the idea was to hopefully buy the car here in the UK, maybe 'need a week or two' to book a ferry and drive it to France... )..

Hurdle two - make damn sure the vendor is completely involved in the sale and export..

Sounds like more hassle than it's worth, even if it's possible at all..?

Cheers.

[nomoss]

You have a couple of straightforward options:

1) Have the seller register the car in UK before you buy it. This means you have no problem using and insuring it in UK before you take it to France, and it's just as easy to register a UK reg car in France as a spanish reg one.

2) Get the seller to complete a french Certificat de Cession and a sale agreement in english, and give you the car's Ficha Technica and Permis de Circulacion. That is all you need from him to register it here.

He should be aware that once he no longer has the documents he won't be able to declare the car exported from Spain, but this should eventually sort itself out when the documents are sent from UK. If he doesn't plan to return there he may not care about this probably long delay. He wouldn't be the first person to do so.

 

[joidevie]

Thanks very much nomoss

If I took up your second suggestion and had the vendor fill out a certificat de cession and full sales receipt, how would I practically be able collect the car, insure it and physically get it to France? It would still have the Spanish plates surely? I'm guessing the French AXA would cover it is some form for the duration of the 'drive to France' though?

Or If I adopted your first suggestion and reg'd the car in the UK - would I be right in assuming the French insurance would be out of the picture, and I would have to use my UK company until the car then was later taken to France in say 6 month's time? (I have nil NCD in the UK, so it may simply be easier to try to get the car to France asap and not use it in the UK other than during the purchase and drive to France..)

Many thanks again..

PS. As a side note - I'm also interested to hear that as a UK resident I am not allowed to drive a foreign registered car in the UK? So, if I drove to the UK from my French address in my French registered (and insured) car, I'd be doing it illegally?

[dave21478]

If you are a UK resident, then yes, it would be illegal. From the government site....

[quote]Temporary imports

You can usually use a vehicle displaying non-UK number plates, and not have to tax or register it in the UK, if:

-you’re visiting the UK and don’t plan to live here

-you only use the vehicle up to 6 months in a 12-month period (1 single visit, or several shorter visits adding up to a 6-month period)

-the vehicle is registered and taxed in its home country

If you become a resident in the UK, you must tax and register your vehicle in the UK straight away.[/quote]

Not many people - including the police - fully understand this though. You will probably get away with a single trip, but who knows..... all it takes is a keen officer to leave you up shit creek without a paddle, and if you are unlucky enough to have a serious accident, you are up the creek without a boat, never mind the paddle.

As I said, you need to speak to your insurance agent to see what cover they may offer for a foreign car - only your own agent talking in relation to your own policy can give you an actual answer to this....just because someone else managed it doesnt mean you will, even via the same company.

As for the practicalities - to comply 100% with the law, you either have to immediately UK register the car (how do you get it from the seller to your home and to the MOT station etc? its a massive piss-about to be honest) or get the car delivered to France on a trailer.

If it were me, and I am not saying its the right thing to do, but its what I would do in your place....I would get temporary insurance from my French agent, collect the car and drive it to France and if stopped, would claim to be a French resident and happen to have a couple of French bills etc in my possession to back this up.

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"]Thanks very much nomoss

If I took up your second suggestion and had the vendor fill out a certificat de cession and full sales receipt, how would I practically be able collect the car, insure it and physically get it to France? It would still have the Spanish plates surely? I'm guessing the French AXA would cover it is some form for the duration of the 'drive to France' though? [/quote]

Yes it would still have spanish plates until you registered it in France. As a UK resident you can not legally drive a foreign registered car in UK, but if you can get your french insurer to cover it (on the basis that you are in the process of registering it in France), I think that if you collect it and drive to the ferry, with a ticket, insurance green card, and the sale documents, that you would not have a problem in the fairly unlikely event of being stopped. I don't know what you could be charged with.

In the worst case, I cannot see how any UK magistrate could find you guilty of anything in driving a car you own, with valid insurance.

[quote user="joidevie"] Or If I adopted your first suggestion and reg'd the car in the UK - would I be right in assuming the French insurance would be out of the picture, and I would have to use my UK company until the car then was later taken to France in say 6 month's time? (I have nil NCD in the UK, so it may simply be easier to try to get the car to France asap and not use it in the UK other than during the purchase and drive to France..) [/quote]

In this case you would be able to drive the car as much as you want in UK, provided it has the "right kind" of insurance.

Your french insurer will probably cover it, but this is apparently not accepted in UK, since "covered by insurance" is apparently defined in UK as "appearing on the database used by ANPR cameras". So unless your french insurer provides information for this database it will have no record your car is insured. Again, I can't believe a UK magistrate would find someone guilty of driving while not insured when they quite obviously are insured, or that the police would waste their time charging someone, but I haven't lived in UK for many years. 

Your UK insurer should give you enough full cover in France for the time it takes to register it here, but they are unlikely to cover the car once it is on french plates, so you would have to cancel and hopefully get some refund. Even if your full foreign cover is limited to a certain  period, minimum legal cover continues after this for the validity of the policy.

 [quote user="joidevie"]PS. As a side note - I'm also interested to hear that as a UK resident I am not allowed to drive a foreign registered car in the UK? So, if I drove to the UK from my French address in my French registered (and insured) car, I'd be doing it illegally?
[/quote]

That seems to be so. I seem to recall a contributor here had big problems with this. At least I think he was hassled by the police, but I don't know if any legal proceedings resulted. I think that possibly one's attitude can make a difference.

 

Edit: I see dave posted while I was responding. Claiming to live in France and having a few french bills could be a good idea, but it might backfire if they decided to take things further. You could even try speaking in french, but that could also backfire -

I left my wife sitting in our german registered car in London on yellow lines once when I nipped into a shop. She saw a meter maid approaching, tuned the radio to a german station, and when the mm spoke to her she gave her a baffled look and said "Please?".

Unfortunately the mm was german[:-))]

 

[nomoss]

On balance, I think you would be better off if stopped driving a spanish registered car in the UK with valid french insurance on your way to the ferry, having purchased the car a few days earlier, than driving a UK reg car in UK with french insurance.

In the first case the car won't interest the ANPR cameras, because it's foreign, so you would only be stopped if you looked dodgy or did something naughty, and you would be committing the fairly obscure offence of driving a foreign registered car while under the influence of UK residency[:D]

In the second case any ANPR camera will spot the car, and plod will tell you the insurance is no good because the computer says so.

 

 

[nomoss]

Has it really become such a convoluted exercise to stay legal on the roads in UK if one is other than a "normal" person fitting into a "normal" sized and shaped box?

For many years we have returned to UK for visits in a variety of cars, registered in Germany, Algeria, Canada, Spain and France, and have travelled extensively there, sometimes for several weeks.

We have never been stopped by police for anything other than minor traffic offences. Never simply because we were in a foreign registered car, and when we produced the car's documents we were never asked where we were resident, although we both had only UK licences until fairly recently.

If we had been asked to give proof of residence I don't really know how we could have done so on the side of the road.

[dave21478]

Motoring in uk is a real hassle. Regulations like SORN and recent changes to leaving cars uninsured when off the road mean that life gets incrementally harder for normal people while those who flout the law with unregistered cars, no insurance etc continue to do so with impunity.

And being stopped at an ANPR check having a UK registered car that doesnt appear on the MID list very often means that the car will be impounded on the spot and the owner will be left to argue the toss later. Years ago there was often a bit of leeway allowed, and officers used common sense and their judgement to make decisions for each cases, but more and more often its "computer says no" and thats it....

[joidevie]

So many interesting insights - many thanks to you both..

I'm homing in on the 'purchase, re-register in the UK, drive for 3-6 months in the UK, and then, in our own time, take the car to France and re-register again there' option.. (for now..).

I will make a call to the DVLA/Aviva insurance  in the morning to see what the official line on getting the car from the vendor, to home, to MOT station and see what they come up with.

Once in France, if the UK insurance lapses or is no longer valid, we can keep the car off the road in France until the whole process can begin again in France.. We still have the old car there which is good to drive until the end of the Summer..

I'll come back with the results for the benefit of the forum..

Then, no doubt, I'll post again about best how to dispose of a right hand drive car in France.. A classic at that. [;-)]

[AnOther]

[quote user="joidevie"]So, hurdle one - As a UK resident, I will

automatically be unable to buy the vehicle here in the UK and have it

insured via my French insurance company and drive it at all.[/quote]There

are three different aspects to that statement and taken as a whole you are correct however on the sole point

of insurance if a person is buying a car in UK to export to France, even

one on UK plates, then subject to it being taxed and MOT'd they can

legitimately have it covered by French insurance and drive it in UK for

up to 30 days.

http://www.mib.org.uk/Customer+Services/en/General+Cross+Border+Information/Police+CBC.htm

Earlier Dave mentions proving French residency if called upon to do so and that's a tricky one as there is no piece of paper you can produce which conclusively does that, ignoring of course that unless you happen upon a plod who speaks French whatever you proffer will be in a foreign language !

Of all the documents I can think of which would go even 1/2 way to proving French residency a French driving licence might carry the most weight. Ironically in the circumstances a UK licence could tend to make plod think that you were trying it on.

As suggested UK registering it might be the course of least resistance.

[nomoss]

A slight complication, perhaps, is that the OP seems to suggest he wants to use the car in UK for a significant period before taking it to France.

If that is the case, UK registration and insurance is the best, and only completely legal way.

If buying the car and taking it straight to France, french insurance and going straight to the ferry port would be the most economical solution.

[AnOther]

If the OP were French resident then he could do that for up to 30 days, for longer than that then yes UK registration, as I said, is the course of least resistance [;-)]

[joidevie]

[quote user="AnOther"]If the OP were French resident then he could do that for up to 30 days, for longer than that then yes UK registration, as I said, is the course of least resistance ]

[/quote]

Thanks again...

However, not being resident in France, I may now be looking at he micro intricacies of handing over some money, getting the vehicle 30 miles to my home, filling out the DVLA paperwork, insuring the vehicle with a mainstream insurer, having it MOT'd etc..

What would therefore be the correct thing to do with the seller re. the Spanish paperwork if going down the UK registration/insurance route? Which paperwork to keep from him, what he needs to do for the Spanish side of things, and what keeps me away from outstanding fines liability etc? Early on in this thread it was mentioned the seller should re-register the car in the UK - but this may be a little awkward to suggest when negotiating a purchase, so is there a clear way this can all be done together at the actual time of purchase?

I could do the 'run the car to the ferry terminal' thing, but it may just not quite fit time wise by a month or two.. So the £55 (+plates) reg. fee and the insurance in the UK (hopefully who will refund the unused portion to some degree) may need to be the right option..

It does make one think whether it's all worth the hassle, but it's a decent car and quite possibly worth the tenacity.. [8-)]

[AnOther]

I make no pretence of having any more understanding of how things really work in Spain than you but that said I would be extremely surprised, if not astonished, to find that after buying a Spanish car in the UK, registering it there, then subsequently registering it in France, the Spanish authorities would come looking for you in respect of prior misdeeds or administrative omissions on the part of the seller so if the car were that appealing then I would probably buy it and let the seller sort out his own problems if he fails to properly follow procedure.

Is he still Spanish resident or has he sold up and returned to UK with the vehicle,

if so then depending on how he has left things in Spain (no assets) that in itself could well be the end of the matter for him.

All my opinions of course, not necessarily fact or advice.

I don't think the DVLA will not care a half eaten Tapas about Spanish administrative procedures and in fact probably won't even know the first thing about them. If you have the Spanish registration document and the other standard paperwork for registering an imported car as detailed in the DVLA import pack then I would fully expect it to be a matter of pure routine but you can confirm that by asking them.

If you want to register it in UK remember you will also have to pay road tax too but you will be able to claim back any unused full months when you export it. You may also need a Certificate of conformity, it's all detailed in the pack you can get from DVLA.

Bonne chance whichever way you go.

[dave21478]

Something else to think about....If you register in UK first and the car is over 3 years old, it will have to pass the MOT before you can register it. Will you have to fork out for RHD headlights to pass MOT? Then switch back to LHD lights when you come to register in France.

[joidevie]

[quote user="nomoss"]

You have a couple of straightforward options:

2) Get the seller to complete a french Certificat de Cession and a sale agreement in english, and give you the car's Ficha Technica and Permis de Circulacion. That is all you need from him to register it here.

He should be aware that once he no longer has the documents he won't be able to declare the car exported from Spain, but this should eventually sort itself out when the documents are sent from UK. If he doesn't plan to return there he may not care about this probably long delay. He wouldn't be the first person to do so.[/quote]

Sorry to get so precise - but we're now also looking pretty hard at the quick export to France option as the whole rigmarole of insuring, taxing etc in the UK could just break the bank.

So, the seller in this second scenario should complete the cerfa 13754*02 Declaration de Cession d'un vehicule >

- In English?

- Using his address in Spain on the cerfa? (he 'has moved back' to the UK, but the car docs are with his Spanish address)

- Using which address on the 'bill of sale' - UK or Spain?

- What to fill in in the section "presence du certificate d'immatriculation" oui/non, ancien format d'immatriculation, numero di certificat etc?

- The lower blue section of the certificat - nothing to fill in in the "Je certifie en outre" (modifier les indications du certificat de conformity..) & "cede pour destruction" (obviously not) ..

Together with the two Spanish original documents, full written receipt, this should be good for the prefecture and exonerate the car from the Spanish system?

Many thanks again, and please again excuse my prudence, but I just know that good research is the best way to avoid later stress if something obvious is missing [;-)]

[AnOther]

I think you are getting yourself far too worked up about the certificate de cession when the plain fact is that it is only relevant to the buying and selling of a French registered vehicle and in all other cases it is a completely irrelevant and completely worthless document.

You wouldn't do one for a UK regged car so why do you imagine you need to do one for a Spanish/Dutch/Belgian/Italian car etc. etc. etc.

If you are now thinking to immediately export it then in effect registration becomes exactly the same as if it were UK regged or if it had come from anywhere else: quittus fiscale (with purchase receipt of some description), certificate of conformity, ct , registration. Job done [;-)]

I speak from some personal experience as my current car was Belgian regged when I bought in UK and as per above

the registration procedure was exactly as if it had been on UK plates.

I wouldn't even try to show the prefecture any Spanish documents they won't serve any useful purpose and in fact could have a negative effect by causing unnecessary confusion giving them an opportunity to say 'non' !

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]I think you are getting yourself far too worked up about the certificate de cession when the plain fact is that it is only relevant to the buying and selling of a French registered vehicle and in all other cases it is a completely irrelevant and completely worthless document.

You wouldn't do one for a UK regged car so why do you imagine you need to do one for a Spanish/Dutch/Belgian/Italian car etc. etc. etc. [/quote]

Sorry AnOther, I disagree. If he takes the car to France with the spanish papers, these are in the seller's name and he has nothiong to prove ownership.    I doubted that a Prefecture would accept a Bill of Sale written in English, which the OP would need in UK if he were stopped, which is why I suggested completing a C de C, which they would understand. It should have the same seller's details as on the car's paperwork.

[quote user="AnOther"] If you are now thinking to immediately export it then in effect registration becomes exactly the same as if it were UK regged or if it had come from anywhere else: quittus fiscale (with purchase receipt of some description), certificate of conformity, ct , registration. Job done 

I speak from some personal experience as my current car was Belgian regged when I bought in UK and as per above the registration procedure was exactly as if it had been on UK plates.[/quote]

Are you saying you registered it in France with someone else's name on the Belgian documents, with no proof you had bought it?

[quote user="AnOther"] I wouldn't even try to show the prefecture any Spanish documents they won't serve any useful purpose and in fact could have a negative effect by causing unnecessary confusion giving them an opportunity to say 'non' ! [/quote]

?????

He has to show the Prefecture the spanish documents - Ficha Technica and Permiso de Circulacion, they are the registration papers you mentioned above.

[nomoss]

[quote user="joidevie"][quote user="nomoss"]

You have a couple of straightforward options:

2) Get the seller to complete a french Certificat de Cession and a sale agreement in english, and give you the car's Ficha Technica and Permis de Circulacion. That is all you need from him to register it here.

He should be aware that once he no longer has the documents he won't be able to declare the car exported from Spain, but this should eventually sort itself out when the documents are sent from UK. If he doesn't plan to return there he may not care about this probably long delay. He wouldn't be the first person to do so.[/quote]

Sorry to get so precise - but we're now also looking pretty hard at the quick export to France option as the whole rigmarole of insuring, taxing etc in the UK could just break the bank.

So, the seller in this second scenario should complete the cerfa 13754*02 Declaration de Cession d'un vehicule >

- In English? I suggest french

- Using his address in Spain on the cerfa? (he 'has moved back' to the UK, but the car docs are with his Spanish address) Put his address as on the spanish papers

- Using which address on the 'bill of sale' - UK or Spain? I suggest Joe Bloggs of - UK address, formerly of - spanish address, so plod might understand the spanish car being in UK.

- What to fill in in the section "presence du certificate d'immatriculation" oui/non, ancien format d'immatriculation, numero di certificat etc? You have a C de I, so it's present, so it's oui! Put the date of issue. The other bit refers to the number on the new style french Cartes Grises, ignore it.

- The lower blue section of the certificat - nothing to fill in in the "Je certifie en outre" (modifier les indications du certificat de conformity..) & "cede pour destruction" (obviously not) .. Tick the first box, which states he hasn't modified the vehicle

Together with the two Spanish original documents, full written receipt, this should be good for the prefecture and exonerate the car from the Spanish system? Works for me [:D]

Many thanks again, and please again excuse my prudence, but I just know that good research is the best way to avoid later stress if something obvious is missing [;-)]

[/quote]

[AnOther]

[quote user="nomoss"]Are you saying you registered it in France with someone else's name on the Belgian documents, with no proof you had bought it?[/quote]If you want to put it like that then yes.

I bought it from a dealer but all the paperwork was still in the

previous Belgian owners name and it was still on Belgian plates. I got an invoice with it on crudely headed notepaper, nothing which you or I couldn't have knocked up in 5 minuets on our own PC's, but it was accepted at the Impots for my quittus fiscale without comment.

Similarly with the MGB I bought last year, that came with an invoice which I could have knocked up in 5 minutes too but again it didn't raise an eyebrow.

Remember ownership is not really Impots concern and in any case, because of the legal obligations for informing the previous registration

authority of a change in country of registration, and returning

surrendered registration documents if requested, a stolen car will quickly be revealed and of course traced.

If it is not related to a vehicle already registered in France I don't understand what you think a manufactured and incomplete certificate de cession can possibly prove ?

I meant 'unnecessary and spurious papers BTW, clearly whatever passes for a registration document in Spain has to be produced. You mention Ficha Technica and Permiso de Circulacion but assuming the Ficha Technica is the equivalent of a CT then like a UK MOT that has no place or function whatsoever in the registration process.