Tax D'habitation, Fonciere. Discounts for holiday homes?

[Paul Bradford]

Hi,

We don't know if anyone can help, but we have heard that there are discounts in tax fonciere or d'habitation if the property is unoccupied for a length of time such as being used as a holiday home. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Regards

Caroline & Paul

[Teamedup]

This has been mentioned recently and I would say that you would likely pay more than less for your unused holiday home.

[Val_2]

When we voted in the increases in both taxes last year,we unanimously voted to increase holiday/second homes higher than residential properties as per previous years. These properties do not contribute anything to the local economy for most of the year so it makes sense to charge more when local people would like to live in them but cannot afford the prices they sell for.

[Nelson]

Hi all

I would like to ask Val 2 how you can keep saying that holiday homes add nothing to the local ecconomy for most of the year.

I pay EDF a standing charge for electricity when I am not there.

I pay the water company a standing charge for water when I am not there.

I pay a very large ammount to have my rubbish collected when I am not there.

I pay tax D`habitation and Fonciere just like ererybody else even though I am not there.

It seems to me that I do contribute very much to the local ecconomy even though for the most part I do not take anything out.

[johnjones]

[quote]When we voted in the increases in both taxes last year,we unanimously voted to increase holiday/second homes higher than residential properties as per previous years. These properties do not contribut...[/quote]

In addition to Nelson's notes about  contribution to the local economy, I have spent large amounts with local artisans renovating my 'holiday home' .  It's very doubtful that a 'local' would have spent the same or taken the care I have and that comment came from my local carpenter.... Yes I'm lucky enough to have a second home and pay my taxes and contribute to the local economy.  But to expect me to subsidise you (Val2) that went along with the fall of the Berlin wall ! JJ

[Teamedup]

This has taken a turn. Those well off enough to have a second home pay more. You don't get certain allowances taken into account that you would on your full time residence.

Val2 is an elected member of her council. The council and not 'just' Val2 will make such decisions and if they decide that holiday homes are to pay more, then I suppose that that is what will happen in that commune. Ofcourse the holiday home owners can do nothing about it as they have no voting right in their commune where their holiday home is  either. 

 

[P]

I suppose making it too expensive for holiday home owners could be counterproductive.

If they decide that costs are too high then they will not buy property, which means that the French will not be able to sell a property (perhaps at an inflated price), and it will fall in to disrepair. Therefore, people staying in the area will decrease, reducing local shops takings and requiring higher taxes to be paid by the locals as there will be less people paying.

[Perlats]

Beware of assuming that everyone who has a holiday home has it as a second home, we rent in the UK because we can't afford to buy there yet cannot afford to live in France. I don't expect to pay less than full-timers but not more. We are not all rich.

[Lizzie15]

Val 2 said "These properties do not contribute anything to the local economy for most of the year so it makes sense to charge more when local people would like to live in them but cannot afford the prices they sell for."        Ouch- who is selling these in the first place? When we bought our holiday home 9 years ago no local wanted to buy it-it needed huge amounts of work doing to it.We bought everything in France,we had local artisans do all the work.We shop in the local shops,even for some large electrical items which are more expensive but they are local and if  the locals don't support them they will close.We have our lawn mowers etc repaired in the local shops.We employ locals to look after our properties.When the Telethon etc is on and we are there,we buy raffle tickets ,give the postlady a Christmas box etc. The barn attached to our holiday home would have fallen down if we hadn't rescued it. One of my neighbours had an accident in her car- she came to me to take her to the site, then take her to the hospital-the New Zealanders renting out one of our houses at the time said they would take her anywhere if she wanted a lift,another set of guests took a video for a different neighbour and gave it her,she was absolutely thrilled! Our houses have been totally restored by locals and locals have said that they are really pleased with what we have had done. Nothing is simple and things are rarely black and white.Everyone is entitled to their own opinion

 

 

[Hoddy]

I realise that things will be different in different parts of France, but, like Nelson I feel that I must take isue with Val2. The house I occupy for five months of the year had lain empty for forty years and so had made no contribution to the local economy in that time.

Since I bought it I have employed local workers, shopped at local shops and the succession of friends and relatives who visit also spend considerable sums in local restaurants and shops.

I am not entirely clear what services the local authority provides. I do know that I pay for parking and if I visit the local salle des fetes I always pay an entry fee. Rubbish is not collected although they dispose of what I take to the dechetterie. I am more than happy to pay my local taxes and very lucky to be able to affford them. However, I would feel it unfair that I should be taxed more heavily than other locals who use more services than I do

Hoddy.

[Russethouse]

By definition most holiday homes are unoccupied for lots of the year - this means no residents to make purchases, food, goods etc and I think this is what the commune look at rather than one off payments to do up property.

How do the commune know how long each property is occupied for ? How much do you have to be there to count as an ordinary resident? If the house is let through the winter does the property just get taxed in the ordinary way ?

I wouldn't like to be the one making the decisions !

[Val_2]

In my defence I am just repeating why these properties are regarded in this way, I DID NOT MAKE THIS REMARK myself,the maire and other councillors did and they have that right as born and bred locals with strong opinions and they now even refuse to sell communal building plots unless they are for residential use only and not for second homes. You have to remember there is a lot of animosity here against rich foreigners (and maybe once I was one of those too although not rich) who are seen as taking away potential homes for the children of the indiginous population. Sometimes it is very hard to be an outsider inside a closed group and when remarks are made,I have to bite my tongue. Paying EDF abbonements does not put anything into the local coffers,only your taxes d'hab and foncières do that. Everything else is utilities for which the "giants" receive the money,not the commune and when you see how much they want to install new waterworks and pumping stations for sewage then you realise how little we do actually put into it all. Therefore I would suggest that those who do not spend a lot of money weekly in their local supermarket or boulangerie or post office keep their remarks to themselves and not slag me off for daring to reply to the original poster.

[Clarkkent]

As the owner of a second home in France may I say that I would not expect ANY special treatment simply because I do not use my house all the year round. I bought my house knowing what were the responsibilities of ownership and accept that it is my choice that I do not live in it full-time. I am therefore totally prepared to pay the full amount of local taxes.

There are so many posts on this site from people whining that they have to pay for a tv licence when they don't watch French tv - this thread is a variation on the same theme. If you want a house in France then you must pay the appropriate cost.

 

[Nelson]

I would just like to say in my defence that before we brought our property for a great many years nothing was put into the local economy from this property as it lay empty and drifting into ruin. Before we purchased ,the property was for sale for many years and none of the local people were interested.

Since then we have spent many thousands of Euro in the local economy firstly by paying local artisans to renovate and lately paying for regular maintenance, as for spending money in the local stores we would love to except there arn`t any and before someone says this is the result of to many holiday homes to the best of my knowledge our hamlet has never been blessed with local shops.

regards colin.

[Hoddy]

Val2 I was most certainly not “slagging you off” - just disagreeing with you. I used to be a local councillor in England and I know that people are very ignorant about which part of government/local government is responsible for what.

It would be really helpful if you could spare the time to say where our local taxes in France go. I’ve often wondered and my neighbours have little idea.

I’ve encountered little animosity in our area against “rich foreigners” although I realise that that may be because they’ve had English in these parts for a very long time and there are still plenty of reasonably priced houses for sale. The shortage is of jobs. and tourists do at least provide summer work for the kids before they go away.

As I already said I'm happy that I'm lucky enough to be able to pay my way - I just don't want to pay more than my fair share.

Hoddy

[Perlats]

Val, I don't think anyone has "slagged you off", just defended their own opinion that paying MORE than full-time residents seems unfair. Everybody seems perfectly happy to pay the same local taxes as residents. Not one person who has replied after your posting has said they expect to pay less, but not using the local shop all year round seems an unjust reason to pay more especially,as has been pointed out, many of these properties were empty ALL the time previously.

[Russethouse]

This isn't the first time this mater has been raised and many times people DO ask if there is a reduction

Don't forget it isn't only English who have holiday homes, its other French and Europeans too and as far as I know they are all treated the same.

Being there to spend locally helps to provide employment etc, it all helps toward the local economy. I understand that argument.

This topic has been discussed several times and no doubt will be again but I do get rather tired of the argument about rich second home owners doing local people out of homes, often the properties that appeal to second home owners are more rural than would appeal to French workers, the sellers of these properties are often French and for generations many properties were just left to decay, where were these young French families then ? The situation is of their own making IMHO.

[Pangur]

I'm confused: what would buying locally have to do with paying local taxes?  How does employing an artisan help the budget of your commune?  Why should you get brownie points with the tax man for using local artisans and shops?

I'm willing to be corrected on this but I was assuming, based on our commune newsletters, that my local taxes go to the same kind of things local taxes in other countries go to e.g. running of the Marie, including dealing with the planning permissions (possibly submitted by second homeowners spending thousands on renovations), the upkeep of local roads, street lighting in local villages, recycling, rubbish collection, deneigement where necessary, possibly contribution to policing and fire-brigades as well as local social activities.  All things that have to be done regardless of whether you live there or not. 

More importantly, if you are not living in the commune, whether resident in Paris or the UK, the commune will not be given money from central government for you.  In most countries, a census will determine the proportion of money a commune or council will get from central government.  If 10% of a commune consists of non-residents, the commune will get less money from central government, even though the maintenance will be similar.  In which case, it makes sense to ensure that non-residents make up for the loss of money from central government through the payment of local taxes.

[Hoddy]

“In which case, it makes sense to ensure that non-residents make up for the loss of money from central government through the payment of local taxes.”

At the risk of getting into a circular argument -

as I’ve already said my house had been unoccupied, even part-time, for forty years. I happily pay my taxes. I can’t see how the commune misses out.

The money that I, and my friends and family spend, helps to keep local businesses going and they are therefore better able to pay their taxes too.

Hoddy

[Fontremy]

Pangur, I think you have missed the point - the relatively simple economic fact is that money spent in the local economy, whether in the shops, local artisans, restaurants etc is then "in circulation" i.e. re-spent and benefits the wider community as a whole. Money spent in restaurants benefits the waiters and waitresses, farmers and local food suppliers etc, builders pay labourers, tool suppliers etc. Many people think that this is a more efficient way of benefiting a community than having politicians deciding when and where taxes should be spent. Having personally spent a small fortune with local artisans and on other local services and being responsible for bringing around 650 high spending people a year into the area I feel I have done more than enough to assist the local economy without being taxed more for the pleasure!

Val2, you may not have been expressing your personal opinion but if you have sympathy with the other views expressed here, why don't you pass these on to your colleagues in local government? I appreciate the difficult balance between the benefits to local communities through rental homes (which probably should be distinguished from pure holiday homes) bringing often significant investment and therefore wealth (and jobs) and the risk of pricing locals out of the market. I'm not sure what the answer is but I am fairly certain that it's an issue for the free market to resolve rather than local or national bureaucrats, all of whom have their own self interests at stake.

FR

 

 

[Pangur]

I'm not missing the point Fontremy - I simply don't see how people think they should be exempt from a tax that pays for local maintenance simply because they spend the same or more on local services and shops or even bringing extra people to the area.   The money is not going to the same services.  The argument that as a non-resident you're not benefiting as much from the services holds a hell of a lot more sway than paying more to local businesses.  Yes, the money you pay to local businesses on holidays will help the overall economy, but it will not pay directly for services in the way that a locally imposed and collected tax does.   It is unlikely that the money you pay artisans will ever find its way into the coffers of your local Marie. 

You can argue about free market economics, but currently, the way goverment is run in France, and indeed in the UK, means that locally collected taxes are key for communities.  Remember that the upkeep of the towns and villages that are attracting your guests is paid for in part by local taxes.   The politicians deciding on where the taxes that your local restauranteur pays to URSSAF are spent are not the same locally elected politicians that decide how to spend the local taxes.  In fact, as non-French citizens cannot vote, the only people I can directly lobby to spend my taxes more efficently are  the local politicians. 

[goose]

Oh dear. The "higher taxes for 2nd homers" arguement sounds very much like a combination of good old working class envy mixed with a bit nimby-ism "I've moved here but I want to stop others doing so". Shame. Like other posters, we've worked hard to scrape together enough money for a house in France but certainly aren't the load-sa-money character that some people imagine. Certain people would get on well with the chairman of Ryanair! So I'll remember that we're not contributing to the local economy when we go over for a month next week, visit the local shops and restaurants and call a plumber in etc....

Back to the original question though. In our region, second homes appear to only have 1 of the taxes applied. I cant remember which one but we checked what the taxes where when buying to find thatthe current owners (parisian 2nd homers) only pay the one. Whether that will alter as we are les anglais remains to be seen but so far the Mairie have been nothing but helpful and welcoming. 

[goose]

...I should add of course that, pleased though I'll be with a discount, I don't mind paying the full whack should my community ask for it but I can't see why 2nd homers should pay more.

Either way, its still a substantially better deal than the daylight robbery of the community charge in the UK!!

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

Goose, what 'only one tax'? Surely all depts have taxes fonciere and habitation.

[goose]

Yes all areas have 2 taxes but how they are applied seems to vary like so many things in France. Certainly the tax d'habitation in the Dordogne and the Lot (the two areas we looked in) was calculated differently with one being fixed based on the size of the property and one being based somehow on a formula that took ones own personal circumstances into account. When we bought we checked all the usual details with our immobilier and also the mairie who confirmed that a) the current tenants tax d'hab wasn't relevant as it is based on personal circumstances ie what we know as means testing or local income taxation and b) in any case no tax d'habitation was currently being charged because the house was currently a maison secondaire, owned by a Parisian. Whether this same generous discount will apply now that the new owners are English remains to be seen! As I said before, I don't mind paying both but I'm not rich enough to turn down a discount if its going! 

I find the concept voiced on this thread that 2nd homers should pay more rather disturbing. It seems horribly remiscent of "old labour" and their motto of "if they're lucky (or hardworking) enough to have more money than me lets tax them more". In general we've received a very warm welcome from our neighbours and the staff of the mairie who all seemed pleased that the house has gone to "les anglais" who might tidy the place up a bit and maybe spend some money in the community as well. I don't think 2nd homers down our way are seen as quite the social lepers that they might be in some areas. Maybe the Lotoise are more used to tourists and understand the benefits of seasonal visitors?