Sudden battery failure

[Ian]

The battery in my car failed a few days ago, with no advance warning.

I started the car and drove a few kilometres to a friend's house. After 5 minutes, I tried to start the car. All I got was a clicking sound (from the solenoid?) which apparently indicates a dead battery.

 I called my garage, described the symptoms and they arrived half an hour later. He turned the key, with the same results, then immediately changed the battery. Success!

I don't mind paying for a new battery (the original was 8 years old), but I'm curious that it suddenly gave up the ghost - right up until then, it had behaved perfectly. And I'm slightly concerned that there might be an underlying fault (alternator? ECU?) that caused it to fail.

Can anybody help me here?

Cheers

[Kong]

I've had the same. Suddenly dead for no apparent reason. However no problems since with new battery so it is unlikely to be electrics. If one cell in the battery goes, ie plate cracks, internal connection between cells breaks, then the whole battery fails.

[EuroTrash]

Same here (Citroen Berlingo). Drove back home no problem, parked the car up for the night as usual, battery died overnight - couldn't even unlock the doors with the blip next morning. Got it started but the battery wouldn't hold the charge so was wondering whether there was an electrical fault causing a drain but bought a new battery to see if that fixed the problem and it did, everything hunky dory again.

[dave21478]

Modern batteries are sh1te. Back in ye good ol` days you usually got a decent length of warning...getting slower and slower to start in the mornings until it finally died which gave you enough time to get hold of a replacement at your convenience, now for some reason its generally a sudden "nope, I am dead" and you are stranded somewhere and often at the mercy of whatever garage or shop is nearest and how much they think they can ream the foreigner for.

[Ian]

Yes, it was the sudden death that confused me - like you, I'm accustomed to some warning.

Looks like the problem's fixed, then.

Thanks for the info, gents.

Cheers

[sid]

8 years is good going though, so you've done well!

 

[Lehaut]

Have had the same in a camping car. More spectacular was in a Renault 21. Parked to pick up the boys, all got back in the car, turned the key and battery exploded under the bonnet. Had to pour lots of water about to dilute the acid. Quite a bang. Replaced it and all was well.

[AnOther]

8 years is a pretty decent innings so you might consider yourself fortunate that it died before the cold weather really sets in because it was definitely waiting to happen.

While a tired battery might continue to work on a modern car which starts on the button introduce just a bit of stress like colder and therefore thicker oil and it can collapse in a few seconds.

Next time you're in your local Brico shed notice that they will likely have a pallet full of batteries ready to cope with the demands which will come in the next few weeks.

[Ian]

Yes, I was lucky it happened close to home, in mild weather, and the garage responded asap. Also, they fitted a bigger battery, never a bad thing.

The tyres are all fairly new, so all I need are new wiper blades and I'm ready for winter.

Cheers

[idun]

Happened to us twice in the last 10 years. Just one of those things.

[ericd]

Hi all. Just reading this story and thought I would bring my 2 pennies worth of comments.

A battery is made up of 6 cells each connected to the next one to give a total of just over 12v at the end. Each cell is made up of a group of -ve and +ve plates in an assembly pattern (+ve/-ve/+ve/-ve etc). those groups are made up of 7 or 9 or more plate groups.

In each cell, the +ve or sometime the -ve plate is protected by an envelope made of a porous but very strong polyethylene (called the separator).

A battery oxidises during the hot summer (a battery doesn't like heat) and the oxidation work hard on the separator slowly slowly disintegrating its body until it just crumbles away (road vibrations etc). When this happens, the enveloped plate is no longer protected form the plate right next to it (+ve or -ve) and both touch causing a short circuit within the cell killing it outright.

Battery replacement people test your unit and if they read any less than 12v, your battery is good for the knacker's yard.

We drove back from the South West to England last year. Stopped a few clicks short of Calais for a little rest and coffee. We had driven stopped/started so far without problems, when we went back to the car, I couldn't crank it and got a few symptoms the battery was dead (slow horn to start with).

We got a push start thanks to a family parked next to us and drove straight to Calais Feu Vert shop to get a replacement (our battery was reading 9v). Batteries won't give you a warning they are on their way out. You will stop 3mn to drop the kids off and won't be able to start up.

A piece of advice to all, top your battery up on a slow overnight trickle charge before the cold comes in. It won't avoid the short circuit but ensure your battery gets you off when you need it most.

[Chancer]

I'm glad you have contributed Eric, I know you are a battery man!

 

What was different in the construction of yesterdays batterys that made them slowly fail in a predictable manner Under winter loading?

 

And is there any way of foreseeing the demise of a battery, any indication or any testing that can be done to enable replacement before the failure? I have a load tester.

[ericd]

[quote user="Chancer"]

What was different in the construction of yesterdays batterys that made them slowly fail in a predictable manner Under winter loading?

[/quote]

Hi Chancer. Batteries of yesteryears were manufactured with the equipment available at the time and it had its limitations..... All grids (we call them grids before pasting and plates thereafter) were manufactured in moulds fed  (with liquid lead) by gravity (and still are now for the best batteries). You couldn't manufacture a thin grid (in order to save lead) even if you wanted as it would have been impossible to get them off the mould. For info, a grid had a frame with a brick wall pattern of much smaller wires within.

Both +ve and -ve grids were manufactured by gravity cast, giving strong thick units that took plenty paste to fill the brick wall pattern mentioned above. Separation of each plate was by way of a thin card of cellulosic separator (in the even olden days the separator was a thin slither of wood !!) ... but that was way before my time. 

As the battery oxidised, the active material itself (the paste lodged in the brick wall grid pattern) started to crumble away but slowly slowly, falling to the bottom of the battery box. That's when you started to see something was wrong and that battery was on its way out. As the active material fell more and more that plate wasn't supporting the other in the cell but as long as each cell carried on supplying their 2v, all was well.

When enough of the fallen active material at made it to the bottom of the battery, it touched one of the other plate and you had your cell short circuit.

Grid manufacture took off in the 70s with the arrival of new grid manufacturing processes (expanded metal and continuous casting later on) Those were able to manufacture much thinner grids that were used for -ve whilst +ve grids remained gravity cast.

Today's cheapest batteries are made of  expanded +ve and -ve and don't expect much more than 2 years life out of it. Hence the importance to check the weight of the battery you want to buy. The heavier, the better.

As mentioned above, the only way to ensure trouble free winter conditions is a) buy a battery that has the longest warranty b) winterise it by giving it a small overnight slow charge every November and c), when the warranty goes consider buying a replacement soon after.

[Chancer]

Thanks Eric, the weight, that will stick with me!

 

Another question I think you have answered before but please humour me.

 

What are the différences between the batteries supplied to the manufacturers for new vehicles on the assembly line and the "apparently" identical ones sold in the aftermarket.

 

The original battery on my Skoda lasted 11 years and may still be going now at 14 if my shatnav didnt decide to switch itself on every 7 days unbeknown to me, I replaced it with what appears to be the same, A Varta blue series but it just looks cheaper, the stickers etc, I cant expect it to last 11 years indeed if it does they are wasting money making them and they would not be competitive.

 

So what is the difference? I guess from your comments that the life I can expect will be a little more than the warranty period.

[ericd]

Hi Chancer ..... Your question is a reoccurring one ! OE (Original Equipment) manufacturers amongst them ALL our well known car European manufacturers are real pain in the backside. They put batteries through very unnecessary tests life expectancy, cold conditions (batteries are placed in a -40c freezer and are expected to crank a few times that day with an hour's rest in between) and will put manufacturers in competition to save €0.01/battery ! They will even reject a batch of batteries because the stickers being slightly skewed ! Very often, battery manufacturers make a loss selling to OEs.

So ...... OE first mount batteries have +ve grids slightly thicker than OE replacement items (I didn't mention it above but in a battery, it's the +ve plate that causes problems; It grows and deforms in its little envelope whilst the -ve is the nice one of the pack.) then comes the branded battery for replacement market and then ..... those unbranded found in most supermarkets.

I received a mail shot yesterday with a battery brand "Moprod - Promax"  sticker .... where in the world is it manufactured ? Your guess is as good as mine but @£35.99 inc.VAT for their 063 dimension, it has to have been made on the cheapo.

In Europe, you only have a few manufacturers still around Germany (JCI/Varta, Exide and Moll), Austria (Banner) Slovenia (TAB) Spain (JCI/Varta and Exide) Italy (Fiamm and a handful of other small manufacturers Vipiemme ..) Romania (Rombat) Hungary (JaszPlasztik) Bulgaria (Monbat) Czech Republic (JCI/Varta) Poland (Jenox/Zap, Autopart and Exide) Turkey (Mutlu, Yigit and INCI).

Cheapo of the cheapo come from Taiwan/Korea and I have known some arriving in the UK (unbranded) from South Africa!

[dave21478]

Amusingly*, the big mower wouldnt start the other morning. I tried jumping it off the Ford as it was right next to it, but no joy. After I got the keys to start the Ford and rev it up for the jump I found that it wasnt keen to start either.

Got it going in the end, but despite running flat out for four hours the mower wont re-start although alternator output is fine, so the battery has suddenly given up completely.

I put the Ford on charge overnight but it was still slow to start in the morning, so its probably kippered too.

Eh, the mower is unlkely to see action again this season so it can wait but I guess I better buy one for the Ford.

The mower battery is only two years old, but obviously I cant find the paperwork. I swung by the place I got it from which is an agri spares place and they have a big sign up saying batteries replaced under warrenty dont come with a new 2 year guarantee, but continue the remaining warrenty period of the original battery - How unlike French retailers to just make up their own laws, eh?

[Ian]

FWIW, the bill was around €210 - €125 for the battery, the rest for call out and labour. I don't mind the latter, the garage were very helpful.

I just wish I could have chosen when to replace the battery....

[sid]

Ian, we've been in the same boat with battery breakdown; isn't that the normal way of things!! Ours gave out at Santander airport where the car had stood for 2 winter weeks. I got a jump start from a group of young guys (this was 11pm at night) and drove all the way home without turning the engine off! For toilet stops I left the engine running, and we took it in turns to nip into the loo! Once home I was able to jump start from another battery the following day, and drove to a supplier in Angouleme where I got a battery for 90€. Phew!

Has anyone on here had to replace a battery on a car where the engine has the Stop/Start feature? Apparently they are more complicated (read "expensive"), having a sensor or something to monitor the battery condition and inform the car's ECU.

Out of interest I've looked on a couple of the usual car parts suppliers' sites but my car, a 2012 Renault model, is not listed !! The engine type is missing if I do a search by make/model/year etc, or it comes back "we couldn't find your car" if I search by immatriculation number! It's not that I need one yet; I'd heard that they're expensive and just wondered how expensive.