Can an Artisan be a micro-enterprise?

[Bastet]

Hi all,

I've read lots of posts on this & other forums but can't find an answer to my specific situation, so here goes.

I'm a carpenter/joiner (city & guilds qualified) with 20 years experience in the construction industry. My last few years in the UK were spent in property maintenance & there I learnt most of the other trades. So I ideally would like to offer a similar service in France, but I don't want/need to work full-time, hence my query as to if it could be possible to do this under a micro-enterprise type company.

From what I've read it would not be possible to LEGALLY offer to do all trades, but gather people do register as one thing & then do anything they're asked to do. I don't want to do anything where I'm going to be looking over my shoulder, or possibly causing ill feeling amongst my French neighbours/artisans.

So does anyone know, with cast-iron certainty, what I can do? I guess my trade would be comparable to a menuisere, which seems to offer a range of jobs. I'm not against limiting myself to one trade skill-set, but don't want to limit myself if it's not necessary, as customers love it when you can come in & do the whole thing start to finish.

Lastly can I please point out that it is not my wish to set up as a micro to avoid paying excessive insurance, coitisations, whatever. As I've said I'm in the fortunate position of not having to work full-time & the €27k P.A would be more than enough for us. I realise that it would mean the customers would have to buy materials & I would make this clear from the start, also I would opt for the sans assurance dec' like a lot of the french artisans around here, as that would help keep my costs down, insurance wise.

Thanks to everyone for looking & all help/opinions offered. I would also like to ask that people don't hijack this post please[;-)]

[Nick Trollope]

Hi

You can do whatever you register to do. Broadly speaking, you can register as whatever you can prove you can do (by way of experience) or are qualified to do. I would suggest that with 20yrs carpentry experience, you could register as everything to do with wood (short of tree surgery!). Ask your local Chambre de Metiers who will handle you registration in any event.

As a micro, you can supply materials, up to a limit (I believe) of 72,000 Euro, of which labour must be no more than 27,000€. You do not need to register for VAT within these limits (unless you want to). Remember that "renovation" still has a 5.5% VAT rate, so you will need to get professional advice as to whether it is worth registering for VAT - this depends on who you customers will be and what proprtion of renovation you want to do (bearing in mind that, for example the carpentry to the roof of a new extension on an old house is chargeable at 19.6%, whilst the replacement of the joist in an old floor is chargeable at 5.5%!!).

Don't set yourself up as a "dodgy Brit builder", there are too many of them about at the moment. There is bags of work for a good carpener/joiner, without you getting into laying patio's.....

As to whether you can legally register to do everything (as a builder) - I doubt it, as you would need to prove quals or 3 years experience in each field... Most can't - legitimately!

 

[Bastet]

Hi

Thanks very much for your detailed reply Nick, so sorry it took me this long to acknowledge it.I've been busy working on our place, trying to get bedrooms ready for the influx of summer visitors, I think we must be on some sort of migratory route!!!

Thanks also to those of you who have sent pm's offering words of encouragement.

I have booked my place on the 5 day course in September ( all booked solid until then!) and intend to set up as a menusier, I think with the amount of work around I won't have any difficulty keeping busy, ha ha. I'll be a réel simplifie for the 1st year & register for tva if the need arises. I found out it isn't any more expensive in terms of coitisations & it will allow me to claim all my expenses back plus allow me to invest in new machines/tools as needed, which would also be offset over a number of years. Wish me luck.....

Thanks all

Tony

[zeb]

Tony, I don't know if it applies to Deux-Sevres but here in Charente, if you book to do the stage in English you can actually register and get your Siret before doing it. It's because the courses in English are only held about four times a year.

OH is doing his last day of the French course today and is registering from 1st July. Long complicated (and expensive) story of changing from registration with Chambre de Commerce to Chambre de Metiers, so a change of Siret number, and changing from micro to reel.

Make sure you get advice about the grants, concessions and deferments available.

[Val_2]

Probably not relevent but years ago when we did our stage, we were warned to register as regards to the amount of income required to support a family of four. Basically, if you register as an artisan and then as a micro with a turnover limit per year and you have a family to support, the impôts will want to know what you are propping up your living expenses with, so be careful as they are extremely nosy here and know exactly what,where and when you are doing or not! Also it could affect your benefits as regards to educational bourses for your children if they are school age. Just a thought!

[Bastet]

Hi Zeb

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware you could actually get your siret before doing the course. I've been asked to start some renovation work in august for friends but was worrying I'd have to defer it until after I'd completed the stage. This backs up something I was reading about it being illegal for the French goverment to prevent you from earning a living in your qualified trade, so guess it makes sense. Would this satisfy the local mairie/gendarmarie do you know?

Will that mean I can also take out any necessary insurances? Does someone know for sure which insurance I must have, apart from public liability (I'm not sure what this is called in French yet, sorry).

Val thanks for your comments also, we don't have any children but I take on board absolutely what you say about big brother watching your every move!! That's one of the reasons I've decided against a micro enterprise, been told the authorities almost can't understand how an artisan can limit themselves to an amount of turnover per year , so they assume you're doing everything for cash & only putting minimum through the books. I'm sure that goes on but I don't want any part of it, the last thing I need is trouble in a country where I still consider myself to be a lucky and, so far, welcomed guest. I never worked like that in the UK so have no intention of starting now.

thanks all for your help & best wishes

Tony

[zeb]

Hi Tony, we had a meeting with a guy from the Chambre de Metiers when we were considering the change. He told us all about the courses and tried to persuade my OH to do the English course and the benefits (i.e. advance registration). OH opted for the French course for various reasons, the main ones being that it was sooner and he can speak French.

My advise is to go and speak to the Chambre de Metiers and ask them about pre-registration, insurances etc.

We have been on a micro and the ceiling wasn't a problem for us, but have changed for the reasons Tony gave (expenses etc). Accountant advised that we would be better off on the reel simp. regime, but then, before all this we didn't have the added expense of an accountant!!

Our big problem now is whether to go for TVA registration or to stay small and not have that worry. Obviously depends on what you do and the materials, type of renovations involved.

[Val_2]

We have always been registered to charge TVA and with the onset of the 5,5% rate we now have to wait nearly 16 months every time for the reimbursement after the accountants and the tax people have verified all the returns and the accounts work - be warned as it does add upto a lot of money you have to live without for all this time and you still have to pay your charges and suppliers regardless.

[margie]

I have just done the course in English in Limoges where I'm sure the waiting list is not that long (approx 3 courses per month). To understand the methods of setting up and registering your business I would certainly suggest that you need to do the course first as it is very easy to set up 'wrong' without having the correct information from the proper source. Some of the information you have been given does not sound correct to me.

[tetley]

hi there, i am assuming as an artisan you will have to have the 10 yr guarantee..the decannel.....we have recently had a quote of about 3500 euros..this is per year. plus your pension,social charges etc...it can be a hefty amount every month!and needs to be paid regardless of earnings.  it is  a bit of a minefield isn't it!

[Bastet]

Yes you're right it is a minefield, there seem to be so many more ways of starting out wrong here, then having to pay to change over to some other regime/status later.

I still haven't found out if this 10 year insurance is compulsory. Some people have told me it is, whilst others have said it is only legally required by those that construct new homes, rather like the UK. If anybody is 100% sure of the requirements please let us know, otherwise I'll have to wait until September when I do my course - I chose Angloueme as the course is in English & my French, whilst improving everyday, is nowhere near good enough to get the most from the course. I have a couple of friends who did the course in French, treating it as a formality, and regret it now when there are so many things they don't truly understand!

 

[Val_2]

We don't construct new homes,more large extensions and large renovation works, but are legally bound to provide the deçennale and civile to protect ourselves and clients should things go wrong which we cannot rectify,an accident happening or a third party getting involved (i.e. say we left a ladder on a site and it was stolen. The thief uses our ladder and is injured and we are liable and so on......) all explained in great detail on the stage de gestion years ago. You insure for each trade you carry out and in our case, general builders that is most trades apart from the aforesaid pools, high tension cable work and boilers hence our premium is just on the 4000€ annually and that is with over ten years of no claims. I should also add that the gendarmes asked to see our cover once when a local thought we were on the black.

[zeb]

Our French accountant said that it isn't obligatory for our trade (I think for some artisans - roofers, stonemasons etc it is), but sensible. We are contacting MAAF for a quote as someone recommended them. We will see..........

Yes, baslet, OH has just finished the course in Angouleme - the CdM is just past the station along the Rue de Gambetta (you can park at the station 4 euros a day).

[vickybear]

Hi Zeb, found your post on a search. We are also in Charente. I note your husband speaks French. Unfortunately our French is not at a great level yet.

Can you tell me if you know of anyone at the Chambre de Metier in Angouleme who speaks English as we need to take advice on setting up our business. Also do you know of an English speaking accountant? Normally we get by with our current standard of French but for something this important I think we need to be discussing it with an English speaker.

If neccessary we are prepared to take an interpreter with us.

Thanks

[zeb]

If you go into the Chambre de Metiers and ask for an English speaker, I'm sure that there is someone there who can help. They run the course in English, so maybe the guy who runs it will be able to help. The next one in English is 13th December.

Sorry, I can't help with names as the original guy from the Chambre de Metiers was French, and we met him at the Mairie at Roumaziers. They have a weekly session there.

Our accountant is based in Civray - G2A