Andy57 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Some advice please.I am looking at working in France for a UK run business. The position would be self employed with accomodation supplied and a £100.00 per week wage plus a percentage of the profits (camp site/fishing ).All the marketing etc would be undertaken by the UK owners, so no outlay for us (myself and partner).So, my question is would it be best to set this up as a micro or EURL or is there a better way to go????Still finding out info on the job itself, but it seems like a good option in terms of getting work in France and to look for a suitable property for ourselves while we are at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 [quote user="Andy57"]Some advice please.I am looking at working in France for a UK run business. The position would be self employed with accomodation supplied and a £100.00 per week wage plus a percentage of the profits (camp site/fishing ).All the marketing etc would be undertaken by the UK owners, so no outlay for us (myself and partner).So, my question is would it be best to set this up as a micro or EURL or is there a better way to go????Still finding out info on the job itself, but it seems like a good option in terms of getting work in France and to look for a suitable property for ourselves while we are at it. [/quote]Self-employed for 140€/week you would barely manage to pay your taxes (and top-ups and insurances), let alone eat. If this is a full-time job, you can see why your employer wants you self-employed - it is less than 1/2 minimum wage! Talk to them about alternatives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy57 Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 I know it's not a lot Nick, but that figure can easily be trebled without to much effort, plus I have fingers in other pies in the UK and other options that will fit in nicely with the self employed work in France, it is to a degree a means to an end (if that makes sense) and would give us a foot hold in France and a roof over our heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Andy, do some research! Cotisations (health/pension/national debt etc etc) costs are very high for the self-employed in France. They are worked out to a formula for the first couple of years (and then adjusted according to your tax declaration) and are based on a full time reasonable wage, so you may find that you are working for less than nothing.Try to get your prospective boss to employ you legally (minimum wage is 8.44 euros an hour) otherwise you will be the loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy57 Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 I have looked at the pitfalls and at the cotistations.I did something similar in France a few years back and was earning 2000 euros a month. But....... it was all black and I don't want to go down that route again.So, that is why I am seeking advice from those of you who are living, working and running businesses in France, I of course want to get as many of the euros I earn into my pocket but still pay my way in the French system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote user="Andy57"]I have looked at the pitfalls and at the cotistations.I did something similar in France a few years back and was earning 2000 euros a month. But....... it was all black and I don't want to go down that route again.So, that is why I am seeking advice from those of you who are living, working and running businesses in France, I of course want to get as many of the euros I earn into my pocket but still pay my way in the French system. [/quote]So, here is a comment from someone living, working and running businesses in France (with no axe to grind) - the maths doesn't stack up. In your first year, your cotistations will be about 300€ per month. In the second year about double that.Advice? Don't be exploited.Sorry if it is no what you wanted to hear.Edit: I've just read your original posting and I realise that there are 2 of you - your cotistations will be higher than those I mention above, but I can't quantify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Plombier Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 NickTell him about the years afer the first oneI need minimum 500 euros a week to cover cotisations, never mind insurances etc.etcEvery year it goes up and up and all my professional advisors tell me the charges are correctIt is only that I have a solid base of good clients who are happy to pay the correct price for a good job that I can make any money at allLe Plombier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Roy Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Perhaps you should look at the posting in this section about Challenge and Co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 [quote user="Rob Roy"]Perhaps you should look at the posting in this section about Challenge and Co.[/quote]I don't think that portage would work for them. Besides which, you can't be employed for less than minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 [quote user="Le Plombier"]NickTell him about the years afer the first oneI need minimum 500 euros a week to cover cotisations, never mind insurances etc.etcEvery year it goes up and up and all my professional advisors tell me the charges are correctIt is only that I have a solid base of good clients who are happy to pay the correct price for a good job that I can make any money at allLe Plombier[/quote]If you are making any money,then you must be doing something right! I wish I could! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 [quote user="Le Plombier"] I need minimum 500 euros a week to cover cotisations, never mind insurances etc.etc[/quote]That's a hell of a lot 500 per week, you pay 26k in cotisations, you must be a very busy plombier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 On average, what is the percentage of cositations and tax paid. I believe it is a combined amount of around 60%. Am I correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 No, not 60% of total turnover, in my experience it's about 40% of 'taxable income' , around 20% of total income. So for a micro bic for example you would get a 38% reduction of the 27k as an allowance and you can also deduct cotisations paid in the previous year (say 4k), You pay a percentage (around 40%) on the figure that's left, in this example of 12740 leaving you paying around 5k in cotisations so about 20% of total income.All just my workings though..... tin hat on for 'you;ve got that around your head comments' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Katie - from my own personal experience after 10 years working here - Taking into account all tyhe unexpected and hidden costs I would say 60% is a fairly accurate figure. Maybe not for a micro bic though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Hi PunchIs it the difference between earingn a small amount as in my exmaple above and when you get on to bigger numbers the percentage gets screwed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Basically yes , although I have never really analysed it too much - Hopefully my accountant is doing a good job ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 [blink]How big is that tin hat Panda?So if a person earns say 30,000 euro on a self employed basis and, takes all of this as a wage, approx what percentage is deducted?What are the limits for higher tax bracket(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 HelloIt doesn't work like that, it depends on what regime you're signed up to, at the moment the upper limit for a Bic is 27k but I believe it's about to move to 35k next year. This is the only regime I know about as that's what I work under and as I said you would pay about 20% of that in cotisations. It works out roughly the same as tax and NI on an equivalent salary in the UK when combined, NI being lower than cotistations but tax being pretty much zilch in France and higher in the UK, swings and roundabouts as they say!Tin hat back on and it's big enough for me to hide under, room for one more if Marc62 comes back on[:)][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Well if you pay roughly the same in deductions in France as UK, why do people harp on so much about it?Thanks for the replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Beats me?? I think it's when you earn a 'good' salary as in Punch's reply above he says the percentage gets screwed the more you earn. If I (or anyone else) was paying 60% of 27k in cotisations no one would do it (would they?)EDIT, one factor is the way the bills turn up, when tax and NI are deducted at source we moan on receipt of the first pay packet but then soon forget. With cotistations you are constantly reminded about how much is going into someone else's hands, I think it's a perception thing in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetley Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 don't forget if you have to take out decannale insurance and public liability, they are very costly.......we pay around 3500 euros per year. We are led to believe that these can't be offset as we are in the micro bic regime, so it is an extra cost, we are also led to believe that it is a legal requirement to have these insurances....so for a start up 'brickie' that is alot of outgoings to cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 HiI don't know the answer myself but I would have thought it would pay to be be a SARL where you had such high costs, can insurance costs be offset in a SARL? Thinking about it, in the building trade I would have thought it would be of benfit as you could also claim for works vehicles and fuel.etc. Also the fact you are not registered for VAT must cause some issue if clients have to pay the full 19% instead of 5.5, does that not put clients off?Panda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetley Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 If you charge for service only, you don't charge TVA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy57 Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 [quote user="Nick Trollope"][quote user="Andy57"]I have looked at the pitfalls and at the cotistations.I did something similar in France a few years back and was earning 2000 euros a month. But....... it was all black and I don't want to go down that route again.So, that is why I am seeking advice from those of you who are living, working and running businesses in France, I of course want to get as many of the euros I earn into my pocket but still pay my way in the French system. [/quote]So, here is a comment from someone living, working and running businesses in France (with no axe to grind) - the maths doesn't stack up. In your first year, your cotistations will be about 300€ per month. In the second year about double that.Advice? Don't be exploited.Sorry if it is no what you wanted to hear.Edit: I've just read your original posting and I realise that there are 2 of you - your cotistations will be higher than those I mention above, but I can't quantify it.[/quote] No need to apologise Nick, it's exactly what I need to hear. I can see that we will need to earn at the very least minimum wage and I assume that if we were to set up a SARL we would in effect be employees of that SARL and would in fact be breaking the law by not paying ourselves minimum wage, is that correct?Hmmmmm.not sounding so good is it........Thanks for all your replies. How the hell does anyone make a living in France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 [quote user="tetley"]If you charge for service only, you don't charge TVA[/quote]I beg yr wotsit? Not true. If you are TVA registered and provide a service, you charge TVA, if you are not, you don't. Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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